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Super dull logbook question

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Super dull logbook question

Old 9th Nov 2020, 03:33
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Super dull logbook question

Please do not read any further if you will be troubled by a ludicrously boring question about logbooks.

Anyway, here it is.

I have recently started my third logbook and this is the first time I have ever had to log the live and synthetic flying hours together at the top of the page.

As I am sure many of you have found, the older style logbook only recorded total time in a simulator and no other details. I also have never recorded those times I have sat on the console instructing (I’d rather forget those moments anyway!).

Since I am not currently co-located with anyone who will be able to answer my question I thought I’d throw it out on here.

I could just make up some simulated dual/Captain/IF times etc but has anyone found a decent way to make it work? Should I ignore everything up until now and start counting from here on?

Anyway, I told you it was dull but for the first time in 21 years I am determined that my latest logbook will not be a mess of tippex and smudges and I want it to look neat. I think I should at least try to have some sensible numbers in the synthetic row even if it is unlikely that I, or anyone else, are ever likely to care if it is accurate.

BV
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 06:19
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Bob, a quick question if I may, but how much time are fast-jet pilots required to spend in the simulator verses live flying these days?

And how often are you flying live sorties verses simulated ones?
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 08:27
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Bob, the Section 7 column headings in my 3rd logbook were amended 'i.a.w. App 3 to Annex B to 38GTO-109' in October 1996 as follows:
Column 3 'Duty or Practice' became 'Captain or Co Pilot'
Column 6 (previously a repeat of column 1) became 'total time'
Column 7&8 (previously repeats of column 2&3) became 'Exercise / Duty'
Column 9 (previously a repeat of column 4) became 'IF App'
Column 10 (previously a repeat pf column 5) became 'IF time'

Initially I used to log each sim session whether 'own' or 'instructional' on separate lines. But that used up Section 7 too quickly, so then I only logged 'own' sim rides on single lines and a monthly total of instructional 'console' time:


However, it sounds like 'synthetic' time has now been moved to Section 5? Perhaps just a monthly summary would suffice, with other details remaining in Section 7?
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 08:53
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BEagle

It all looks like this now:



Obviously such details as IF time and approaches were never recorded for sims before.

I fully realise this is a trivial detail and in the absence of any sage suggestions I will just apportion a realistic amount to each column but I just wondered what others had done in my situation.

BV
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 09:16
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Are they seriously expecting people to carry forward the number of I/F approaches they've ever flown? In the old logbook, columns 11 &12 were clearly marked to show that carry forward wasn't required.

Is there a definition of 'synthetic' time at the front of the book? Or does it really mean all box time?

Trying to establish in any detail how much box time you've ever flown would be pretty difficult, although there should be periodic summaries in Section 7 you could use for total time. I'd use those, plus an educated guess at the I/F time (80% of total?). But i'd strike through the 'carry forward' for I/F approaches.
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 09:51
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Bob,

On the ME fleet I was on this new ruling was coming in as I retired albeit with sim hours recorded in a different colour (blue?)rather than black. In the sim auth sheets we always recorded flying as for live events including IF time (all simulated obviously). I never carried forward the number of approaches except to the monthly summary where for many years we’d included the number & sim IF time as an easy way for supervisors to see that pilots were maintaining their IR (6 approaches & 3 hrs in 6 months). This was necessary as much of our flying was taking place in sunny Middle Eastern climes with mostly visual approaches being flown.

As to sim time as the instructor (not in the seat) we were required to log it monthly in the sim section. I found it best to maintain a separate (unofficial) logbook just totalling the hours up. It also meant that I had something to show for the over 3000hrs I spent inside a darkened box rather than in the air!
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 10:38
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As an aside, I see that the RAF log-book layout has hardly changed since my father made his first entry** in 1936. The left hand side is exactly the same, but on the right there were then separate columns for Single and Multi-engine times, day and night, and 2 columns, Dual or Pilot, for Instrument/Cloud Flying times,

** 1 Air Experience. 2 Taxying and handling of engine, and action in event of fire. DH 82, P1 F/O W/Slade, 20 minutes.

I wonder what "Action in event of fire" was. 27 years later, in the club Austers, I was taught, IIRC, that if a fire started it was Fuel off, sideslip hard, force land. But then we didn't wear a parachute.


Back to the thread.
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 10:59
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Having looked at the new Pilots Logbook Section 5, as illustrated by BV, I can only empathise with those who have to fill in this monster! It appears now that two logbooks have been condensed into one, with 'Live' and 'Synthetic' times entered and carried forward separately. By the same token presumably the monthly summaries will similarly show these two rows of Live and Synthetic times to be signed for by the pilot and endorsed by the OC and Flt Cdr.

What about WSO(p)'s? Have their Logbooks been similarly republished for their sim times to be signed for and endorsed on a monthly basis?

Whilst the ever growing importance of Sim Training is clear, both for continuation and operational training, and the cost savings in reduced flying hours that result, the accurate recording of such Sim time is clearly vital. Is this part of the fallout of the SI into the Red's accident that found major discrepancies in such recording?
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 11:14
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Just for a different flavour; the army record both live and synthetic sorties in the main section of the logbook and then do monthly summaries that include Sim as a (type) line entry; the monthly total takes account of Sim as well. The page totals however only include live flying. The Simulation section of the logbook then take a one line entry from each monthly total Sim line. This was driven by the fact that there is as much sim flying now as live almost, and the simulator section of the logbook was not large enough to cater for individual sorties. Also simulator counts against total rolling totals....
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 19:12
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I was surprised to see a "Number of Landings" column in my third logbook.
So with a few thousand hours, I wrote 1.
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 19:47
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I’ve been trying to find out who “owns” the lay out of flying log books. I asked CFS and it wasn’t them. I wonder made this change? Can you take a picture of the front cover BV? Does it have a date for the version number?
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 00:19
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My understanding is that it was caused by Typhoon (and now F35) having more sim than actual hours in their logbooks. So to save Typhoon drivers looking silly with no actual hours, the 1,000 other RAF aircrew have to change their way of doing things...

Nearly 20 yrs my logbook was fine with sim hours at the back... now it is changing for the ego of 60 people.

I am glad we have our priorities right.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 01:53
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Originally Posted by heights good View Post
My understanding is that it was caused by Typhoon (and now F35) having more sim than actual hours in their logbooks. So to save Typhoon drivers looking silly with no actual hours, the 1,000 other RAF aircrew have to change their way of doing things...

Nearly 20 yrs my logbook was fine with sim hours at the back... now it is changing for the ego of 60 people.

I am glad we have our priorities right.
Typhoon still does (did?) more live than sim. FWIW Typhoon drivers weren’t happy with the change either.

It was changed, in my understanding, to make it easier for various people to get an understanding of the breakdown, keep track of approaches etc. poor reason IMO.

Bob Viking why don’t you raise to unit/Gp HQ? It’s their policy, they should provide guidance. I wouldn’t make up Numbers, but that’s me...
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 02:13
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FH

As I mentioned before I’m not presently in a location that would allow me to chat easily with such people.

If I were to speak to my current chain of command about logbooks they would probably just shrug their shoulders!

Under normal circumstances I would have just canvassed opinion around the tea bar in the crew room but that’s what you guys are for!

LJ

RAF Form 414
(Revised 2/16)

One other point. 60 Typhoon pilots? Are you kidding?! I’d suggest there are a lot more than that.

BV
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 03:59
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post

What about WSO(p)'s? Have their Logbooks been similarly republished for their sim times to be signed for and endorsed on a monthly basis?
Going back a few years, on the Nimrod force with the Maritime Crew Trainer (MCT) we logged our MCT hours on a monthly basis due to Group mandated stats on a monthly/quarterly basis for currency in the various skills and magic that was ASW and ASUW with all it's variations.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 08:39
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It’s turned into a bit of a muddle now where this enforced change has caused confusion. The ‘new’ layout does indeed mandate that synthetic events should be recorded in blue ink; live events in black. No simulator section in the back, so does one still log the cockpit procedures events (CPIT on the JP - remember those!) or only full flight sim? If the latter is a level D simulator then the IF is recorded as actual - not sim! If you don't you’ll not have enough actual hours for your Initial IR.

If you fly/sim a lot then the monthly summary takes quite a while to complete to avoid errors; so easy to add up events and total them in the wrong column.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 12:51
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Going back a few years, on the Nimrod force with the Maritime Crew Trainer (MCT) we logged our MCT hours on a monthly basis due to Group mandated stats on a monthly/quarterly basis for currency in the various skills and magic that was ASW and ASUW with all it's variations.
This underlines the point that logbooks are not there as a personal memento, though I think all of us will be proud of them for that reason alone; they were always intended to be a personal record as a supervisory tool, even back in WW2. Collecting an individual's activities into one place means that supervisors can quickly gauge experience, see how much flying or synthetic training has been undertaken in the period, see working patterns, find out who is not flying nights etc. That is why logbooks always used to be inspected as part of the CFS visits, pre-AFV checks and the like. Training folders should provide an additional level of detail that you would expect to see used to manage routine requirements, CR work-up and the like, so you still need them.

Given the inexorable move towards shifting training from live to synthetic delivery, it shouldn't come as a surprise if people are being asked to record the synthetic training in more detail. You might instead ask if 10 years from now whether paper log books will still be in use at all. How many working hours do the Services burn annually on the laborious handwritten transfer of data into a book and the subsequent checking by flt and sqn cdrs?
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 15:37
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“Super dull logbook question” this thread does not deliver

I collect WW2 aircrew logbooks and have about 30 RAF/Luftwaffe logbooks....guess I’m the only geek who finds them fascinating!
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 22:50
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Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
“Super dull logbook question” this thread does not deliver

I collect WW2 aircrew logbooks and have about 30 RAF/Luftwaffe logbooks....guess I’m the only geek who finds them fascinating!

No, you are not.

I don't collect logbooks, but I am certainly intrigued by what's in a pilot's logbook. Especially those who have spent most of their career flying a combat platform - the stories from the various Red/Green Flag, etc and combat dets can be epic.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 23:10
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BV

In regard to the amount of Typhoon pilots, even doubling that number is still only around 10% of the entire front-line aircrew cadre.

It's still tail, wagging dog.
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