Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

A400 vs. gliders

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

A400 vs. gliders

Old 25th Oct 2020, 21:19
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North of the South Pole
Posts: 1,016
A400 vs. gliders

Would an A400 crew have any way of detecting a FLARM equiped glider, other than MKI Eyeball?
ZeBedie is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 21:43
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Posts: 315
No, and they wouldn't detect an ADS-B (only) equipped glider, either. Perhaps a transponder equipped glider (TCAS).
MarcK is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 22:22
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uranus
Posts: 854
As the A400M is an Airbus aircraft then if ATSAW is embodied then it will detect and display ADS-B only traffic as long as SIL=1+ and SDA=1+.

Here is what the ATSAW symbology looks like:







The same goes for Voyager too - with ATSAW embodied and enabled then it could see a glider if it is emitting SIL=1+ and SDA=1+ ADS-B. This is what Airbus say about ATSAW for the A330:

Airborne Traffic Situational Awareness (ATSAW), took advantage of Automatic Dependent Surveillance- Broadcast (ADS-B) by displaying aircraft information. It enhances the flight crew’s knowledge of their surrounding air traffic situation, contributing to fuel savings by identifying the opportunity to climb and optimizing the flight level. In approach ATSAW increases runway throughput by improving identification and information of target aircraft and decreasing pilot workload. ATSAW was certified in 2011.
However, not many gliders even have a transponder.
The B Word is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 22:54
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: N/W London
Posts: 169
However, not many gliders even have a transponder

A lot of gliders are technically incapable of accommodating or supporting the power requirements of a conventional transponder. Also, would not the slow speed of a glider be filtered out by most TCAS systems?
Flying_Anorak is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 00:54
  #5 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting home
Age: 42
Posts: 3,038
Originally Posted by Flying_Anorak View Post
would not the slow speed of a glider be filtered out by most TCAS systems?
I am not aware of any technical limitation for that. IIRC ACAS is a challenge-response interrogation device, where possibly a high relative speed with doppler effect might introduce some challenges on the transport layer.

But surely it was designed to function even for 2 stationary helicopters.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 07:54
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: england
Posts: 982
Originally Posted by Flying_Anorak View Post
However, not many gliders even have a transponder

A lot of gliders are technically incapable of accommodating or supporting the power requirements of a conventional transponder. Also, would not the slow speed of a glider be filtered out by most TCAS systems?
Whilst traditional transponders might be out the window, something like SkyEcho in the UK is extremely well suited to gliders, especially in areas where they might conflict with conventional aircraft.

https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/

there's also a CAA rebate available at the moment for them, so it'll cost you the dizzy heights of 250 in the UK for powered GA or for gliders.

https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...cuity-devices/
pba_target is online now  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 08:28
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 1,995
The B Word

Could you point to the information that says certain ADSB transmissions won't be displayed ? The images above clearly show the combination of types "on offer" but I would have thaought that a warning such as "Caution - not all ADSB traffic visible" would be part of the instructions.

Is it more the case that traffic below the SIL/SDA level wont generate an RA but will still be shown - just like Mode A transponders?
ETOPS is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 08:50
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: in my own world
Posts: 136
Getting back to the original question...FLARM doesn't talk to anything other than another FLARM receiver. The RAF retro fitted FLARM to their Tutors for greater SA. A few years ago I was gliding over Oxfordshire when I saw a FLARM contact coming towards me a 1000' lower (a powered ac - this can be configured in the set-up), it was the BBMF Lancaster and the Canadian one with Spitfire and Hurricane escort. So yes to the question if you have the kit.
xray one is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 09:39
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North of the South Pole
Posts: 1,016
Thanks for the replies - interesting and good to know that some types of TCAS can see non-transponder ADS-B

" FLARM doesn't talk to anything other than another FLARM receiver " That's not true - it talks to ground stations, which then rebroadcast the gliders information in a format usable by PilotAware (which is used by many light aircraft).

The Shawbury helicopters also have FLARM
ZeBedie is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 11:05
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: in my own world
Posts: 136
ZeBedie Wrote:

[QUOTE]That's not true - it talks to ground stations, which then rebroadcast the gliders information in a format usable by PilotAware (which is used by many light aircraft).
[/QUOTE

Jeeez... splitting hairs, the ground base is a FLARM receiver and yes sites like Spot the gliders! then can be used.

May I ask you a question, if you know so much about FLARM why ask the question in the first place?
xray one is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 11:43
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 170
I thought for a moment when I saw the title you meant replacing A400 with gliders!

Getting something to use as a tug would be interesting.
PapaDolmio is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 17:00
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,262
My Trig TT22 transponder can run about 6 hours off one of my glider batteries. I'd love to enable ADS-B Out, but the regulatory hoops in Canada have not yet been laid out with any degree of clarity and in the US they are seriously gold plated.

In the meantime my transponder makes me visible to TCAS.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 18:44
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Nympsfield
Posts: 12
@ETOPS, there is an RTCA spec (DO-317B ) that says that only traffic with SIL and SDA equal or greater than 1 should be displayed.

SkyEcho2 is technically capable of SDA=1 but due to the way CAP1391 is written, SDA is set to 0 at the moment.

It will also depends if the RAF ticked the box for the option to have ADS-B in
xtophe80 is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 19:08
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North of the South Pole
Posts: 1,016
Given the amount of flying the RAF does in the company of aircraft equipped only with FLARM or other GA systems like PilotAware, you'd think they'd equip with the kit to see these aircraft - the cost would be truly trivial.
ZeBedie is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 19:16
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 1,995
Thanks xtophe80

I take comfort from the info that even though my ADSB signal is SIL=0 it is via my Mode S transponder thus I will still be detected. What we need now is the agreement that so called
"uncertified" GPS sources have enough accuracy for this application. One of my portable devices reports a CEP in terms of 16ft which is less than my wingspan......
ETOPS is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 19:34
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: by the seaside
Age: 71
Posts: 922
Pic St Loup

The montpellier gliding club's glider fleet have had conventional transponders for at least a decade after an airbus hit a glider in open airspace. Controller error and knee jerk was the dgac nicking 2,000 ft of open airspace but the club negotiated using closed airspace with mode C transponders powered by a couple of burglar alarm lead acid batteries. Autonomy was generally at least 5 hours in spite of the cold OAT during wave climbs. Standard calls either with Montpellier approach or Istres military towards the rhone valley..Then onto Airways with Orange. Only negative is some of the controllers appalling English which often led to them having to listen to my french.
blind pew is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 19:35
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uranus
Posts: 854
ETOPS

Here is a link to the Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS) requirements under TSO-C199. TABS was designed as a standard for certified ADS-B In to receive - ie. ATSAW, CDTI, ACAS-X, etc...

https://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2...20briefing.pdf

To save you wading through it, here are the parameters of interest:


Someone mentioned SkyEcho. This Low Power ADS-B Transceiver (LPAT) can do SDA=1 and SIL=1 and does so in Australia under the Australian regulations. It also has a TSO-C199 GPS and so it has everything needed for the UK once the CAA allow it under CAP1391 and people enable SDA=1 via the software. At 250 after the CAA rebate, then it’s a ‘billy bargain’.

The B Word is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2020, 11:46
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 304
Originally Posted by ZeBedie View Post
Given the amount of flying the RAF does in the company of aircraft equipped only with FLARM or other GA systems like PilotAware, you'd think they'd equip with the kit to see these aircraft - the cost would be truly trivial.
It truly wouldn't, unlike GA aircraft they can't just velcro something to the instrument panel so the cost soon becomes excessive when trying to integrate into a glass cockpit.
Bing is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2020, 17:28
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: South
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Bing View Post
It truly wouldn't, unlike GA aircraft they can't just velcro something to the instrument panel so the cost soon becomes excessive when trying to integrate into a glass cockpit.
What depressing times we live in;- An ultra low cost, easy to install and operate solution can be talked up to such a high price, it becomes far cheaper to kill a GA pilot, maybe a service flight crew/s and smash up a very expensive national asset.




Last edited by Bagheera S; 27th Oct 2020 at 18:37.
Bagheera S is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2020, 19:21
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: england
Posts: 982
Originally Posted by Bagheera S View Post
What depressing times we live in;- An ultra low cost, easy to install and operate solution can be talked up to such a high price, it becomes far cheaper to kill a GA pilot, maybe a service flight crew/s and smash up a very expensive national asset.
If you do that for every capability that is required you end up with a pretty high workload cockpit. The difference between commercial, GA and military is considerable in that Mil ac are continuously having new equipment fitted. If you had a "bolt on" collision warner, how do you give audio to the crew? If not, how do you expect a crew to be alerted to a threat.

If you have a bolt on threat Warner as well, which do you put where? How do you prioritise audio from the threat Warner and collision warner? The list goes on, but cockpit design is not as simple as "build your primary instrument scan and then bolt a bunch of stuff round the outside of it".

Believe me, no one is a bigger advocate for "quickly, cheaply" than I am, but at least some of the method isn't madness or blatant profiteering!
pba_target is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.