A400 vs. gliders

[ZeBedie]

Would an A400 crew have any way of detecting a FLARM equiped glider, other than MKI Eyeball?

[MarcK]

No, and they wouldn't detect an ADS-B (only) equipped glider, either. Perhaps a transponder equipped glider (TCAS).

[The B Word]

As the A400M is an Airbus aircraft then if ATSAW is embodied then it will detect and display ADS-B only traffic as long as SIL=1+ and SDA=1+.

Here is what the ATSAW symbology looks like:







The same goes for Voyager too - with ATSAW embodied and enabled then it could see a glider if it is emitting SIL=1+ and SDA=1+ ADS-B. This is what Airbus say about ATSAW for the A330:

Airborne Traffic Situational Awareness (ATSAW), took advantage of Automatic Dependent Surveillance- Broadcast (ADS-B) by displaying aircraft information. It enhances the flight crew’s knowledge of their surrounding air traffic situation, contributing to fuel savings by identifying the opportunity to climb and optimizing the flight level. In approach ATSAW increases runway throughput by improving identification and information of target aircraft and decreasing pilot workload. ATSAW was certified in 2011.

However, not many gliders even have a transponder.

[Flying_Anorak]

However, not many gliders even have a transponder

A lot of gliders are technically incapable of accommodating or supporting the power requirements of a conventional transponder. Also, would not the slow speed of a glider be filtered out by most TCAS systems?

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by Flying_Anorak

would not the slow speed of a glider be filtered out by most TCAS systems?

I am not aware of any technical limitation for that. IIRC ACAS is a challenge-response interrogation device, where possibly a high relative speed with doppler effect might introduce some challenges on the transport layer.

But surely it was designed to function even for 2 stationary helicopters.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Originally Posted by Flying_Anorak

However, not many gliders even have a transponder

A lot of gliders are technically incapable of accommodating or supporting the power requirements of a conventional transponder. Also, would not the slow speed of a glider be filtered out by most TCAS systems?

Whilst traditional transponders might be out the window, something like SkyEcho in the UK is extremely well suited to gliders, especially in areas where they might conflict with conventional aircraft.

https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/

there's also a CAA rebate available at the moment for them, so it'll cost you the dizzy heights of £250 in the UK for powered GA or for gliders.

https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...cuity-devices/

[ETOPS]

The B Word

Could you point to the information that says certain ADSB transmissions won't be displayed ? The images above clearly show the combination of types "on offer" but I would have thaought that a warning such as "Caution - not all ADSB traffic visible" would be part of the instructions.

Is it more the case that traffic below the SIL/SDA level wont generate an RA but will still be shown - just like Mode A transponders?

[xray one]

Getting back to the original question...FLARM doesn't talk to anything other than another FLARM receiver. The RAF retro fitted FLARM to their Tutors for greater SA. A few years ago I was gliding over Oxfordshire when I saw a FLARM contact coming towards me a 1000' lower (a powered ac - this can be configured in the set-up), it was the BBMF Lancaster and the Canadian one with Spitfire and Hurricane escort. So yes to the question if you have the kit.

[ZeBedie]

Thanks for the replies - interesting and good to know that some types of TCAS can see non-transponder ADS-B

" FLARM doesn't talk to anything other than another FLARM receiver " That's not true - it talks to ground stations, which then rebroadcast the gliders information in a format usable by PilotAware (which is used by many light aircraft).

The Shawbury helicopters also have FLARM

[xray one]

ZeBedie Wrote:

[QUOTE]That's not true - it talks to ground stations, which then rebroadcast the gliders information in a format usable by PilotAware (which is used by many light aircraft).
[/QUOTE

Jeeez... splitting hairs, the ground base is a FLARM receiver and yes sites like Spot the gliders! then can be used.

May I ask you a question, if you know so much about FLARM why ask the question in the first place?

[PapaDolmio]

I thought for a moment when I saw the title you meant replacing A400 with gliders!

Getting something to use as a tug would be interesting.

[RatherBeFlying]

My Trig TT22 transponder can run about 6 hours off one of my glider batteries. I'd love to enable ADS-B Out, but the regulatory hoops in Canada have not yet been laid out with any degree of clarity and in the US they are seriously gold plated.

In the meantime my transponder makes me visible to TCAS.

[xtophe80]

@ETOPS, there is an RTCA spec (DO-317B ) that says that only traffic with SIL and SDA equal or greater than 1 should be displayed.

SkyEcho2 is technically capable of SDA=1 but due to the way CAP1391 is written, SDA is set to 0 at the moment.

It will also depends if the RAF ticked the box for the option to have ADS-B in

[ZeBedie]

Given the amount of flying the RAF does in the company of aircraft equipped only with FLARM or other GA systems like PilotAware, you'd think they'd equip with the kit to see these aircraft - the cost would be truly trivial.

[ETOPS]

Thanks xtophe80

I take comfort from the info that even though my ADSB signal is SIL=0 it is via my Mode S transponder thus I will still be detected. What we need now is the agreement that so called
"uncertified" GPS sources have enough accuracy for this application. One of my portable devices reports a CEP in terms of 16ft which is less than my wingspan......

[blind pew]

Pic St Loup

The montpellier gliding club's glider fleet have had conventional transponders for at least a decade after an airbus hit a glider in open airspace. Controller error and knee jerk was the dgac nicking 2,000 ft of open airspace but the club negotiated using closed airspace with mode C transponders powered by a couple of burglar alarm lead acid batteries. Autonomy was generally at least 5 hours in spite of the cold OAT during wave climbs. Standard calls either with Montpellier approach or Istres military towards the rhone valley..Then onto Airways with Orange. Only negative is some of the controllers appalling English which often led to them having to listen to my french.

[The B Word]

ETOPS

Here is a link to the Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS) requirements under TSO-C199. TABS was designed as a standard for certified ADS-B In to receive - ie. ATSAW, CDTI, ACAS-X, etc...

https://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2...20briefing.pdf

To save you wading through it, here are the parameters of interest:


Someone mentioned SkyEcho. This Low Power ADS-B Transceiver (LPAT) can do SDA=1 and SIL=1 and does so in Australia under the Australian regulations. It also has a TSO-C199 GPS and so it has everything needed for the UK once the CAA allow it under CAP1391 and people enable SDA=1 via the software. At £250 after the CAA rebate, then it’s a ‘billy bargain’.

[Bing]

Originally Posted by ZeBedie

Given the amount of flying the RAF does in the company of aircraft equipped only with FLARM or other GA systems like PilotAware, you'd think they'd equip with the kit to see these aircraft - the cost would be truly trivial.

It truly wouldn't, unlike GA aircraft they can't just velcro something to the instrument panel so the cost soon becomes excessive when trying to integrate into a glass cockpit.

[Bagheera S]

Originally Posted by Bing

It truly wouldn't, unlike GA aircraft they can't just velcro something to the instrument panel so the cost soon becomes excessive when trying to integrate into a glass cockpit.

What depressing times we live in;- An ultra low cost, easy to install and operate solution can be talked up to such a high price, it becomes far cheaper to kill a GA pilot, maybe a service flight crew/s and smash up a very expensive national asset.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Originally Posted by Bagheera S

What depressing times we live in;- An ultra low cost, easy to install and operate solution can be talked up to such a high price, it becomes far cheaper to kill a GA pilot, maybe a service flight crew/s and smash up a very expensive national asset.

If you do that for every capability that is required you end up with a pretty high workload cockpit. The difference between commercial, GA and military is considerable in that Mil ac are continuously having new equipment fitted. If you had a "bolt on" collision warner, how do you give audio to the crew? If not, how do you expect a crew to be alerted to a threat.

If you have a bolt on threat Warner as well, which do you put where? How do you prioritise audio from the threat Warner and collision warner? The list goes on, but cockpit design is not as simple as "build your primary instrument scan and then bolt a bunch of stuff round the outside of it".

Believe me, no one is a bigger advocate for "quickly, cheaply" than I am, but at least some of the method isn't madness or blatant profiteering!