US Navy TexanT6 crash fatal 10-23
https://www.metric-conversions.org/l...kilometers.htm
There is nothing 'mysterious' about it. We don't know all of the facts yet. We do know a lot about aviation accidents generally and specifically ejection seat equipped training aircraft accidents. As many posters have said, it is ill-advised to speculate publicly. Wishing that on a public internet forum is as futile an exercise as it gets. The reason you don't 'understand why' is precisely because we are not in possession of all the facts. Your comparison with the USMC C-130 accident and the implication that the pilots might have 'rode it to the ground and then hit a house' betrays an ignorance of aviation matters. You are free to speculate as you wish, this is a public forum, however please understand that idle commentary on cause and reasons may be ignored and categorised as irritating.
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I read about an incident with a Slovenian PC-9 where the student pilot ejected but the instructor stayed in and landed the plane. Does anyone know how the ejection system is configured on the USN T6B in question? Specifically, can the instructor eject both pilots? Or would the student have been required to pull the lever herself ? (and perhaps been unable to for some reason)
I read about an incident with a Slovenian PC-9 where the student pilot ejected but the instructor stayed in and landed the plane. Does anyone know how the ejection system is configured on the USN T6B in question? Specifically, can the instructor eject both pilots? Or would the student have been required to pull the lever herself ? (and perhaps been unable to for some reason)
The aerial view of the crash site shows what appears to be roof damage in all directions (blue tarps) indicating a high energy near vertical impact.
The purpose of discussion of accidents serves to narrow the initial realm of posible causes and serves to focus the discussion.
When I was going through the training command we were killingh on average 1 person per week and we avidly read the CNATRA weekly accident report to better understand the numerous ways you can have a bad day.
I think FDR is probably pretty close to the truth with his thoughts on bird strikes. If proven, perhaps some reinforcement of the canopy or other structure would be warranted.
The purpose of discussion of accidents serves to narrow the initial realm of posible causes and serves to focus the discussion.
When I was going through the training command we were killingh on average 1 person per week and we avidly read the CNATRA weekly accident report to better understand the numerous ways you can have a bad day.
I think FDR is probably pretty close to the truth with his thoughts on bird strikes. If proven, perhaps some reinforcement of the canopy or other structure would be warranted.
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I relooked at the speed and altitude and this would appear that there was a definitive point of LOC. The aircraft is in the box maneuvering and comes out of a turn. It looks like the aircraft was under control and speed was controlled and then there is a rapid loss in both altitude and forward speed. That would indicate a spin and in the case of a Texan it would be flat as the tail is not stalled in a spin(trainer). That would explain the near vertical but flat impact. It would also happen post ejection to the aircraft.
Looking at the data it makes me question a failed ejection. Here is what the manufacturer's page says about the ejection system.
The aircraft has a through the canopy ejection system with a Martin Baker Mark US16LA zero/zero ejection seat. When the pilot pulls the ejection handle, they will always eject; if the redundant canopy fracturing system fails, they will eject through the canopy without injury.
In other words, the canopy glass has a charge in it that fractures the glass and if it fails the seat is designed to power through it. This is different than most designs where the canopy comes off the rails when ejecting and the glass is shed intact. I don't know enough about the seats to pass judgement but wonder if the seats were fired and the ejection sequence failed and incapacitated the crew.
Loss of a crew is a tragic event and I hope the accident investigation yields answers.
Looking at the data it makes me question a failed ejection. Here is what the manufacturer's page says about the ejection system.
The aircraft has a through the canopy ejection system with a Martin Baker Mark US16LA zero/zero ejection seat. When the pilot pulls the ejection handle, they will always eject; if the redundant canopy fracturing system fails, they will eject through the canopy without injury.
In other words, the canopy glass has a charge in it that fractures the glass and if it fails the seat is designed to power through it. This is different than most designs where the canopy comes off the rails when ejecting and the glass is shed intact. I don't know enough about the seats to pass judgement but wonder if the seats were fired and the ejection sequence failed and incapacitated the crew.
Loss of a crew is a tragic event and I hope the accident investigation yields answers.
Looking at the data it makes me question a failed ejection. Here is what the manufacturer's page says about the ejection system.
The aircraft has a through the canopy ejection system with a Martin Baker Mark US16LA zero/zero ejection seat. When the pilot pulls the ejection handle, they will always eject; if the redundant canopy fracturing system fails, they will eject through the canopy without injury.
In other words, the canopy glass has a charge in it that fractures the glass and if it fails the seat is designed to power through it. This is different than most designs where the canopy comes off the rails when ejecting and the glass is shed intact. I don't know enough about the seats to pass judgement but wonder if the seats were fired and the ejection sequence failed and incapacitated the crew.
The aircraft has a through the canopy ejection system with a Martin Baker Mark US16LA zero/zero ejection seat. When the pilot pulls the ejection handle, they will always eject; if the redundant canopy fracturing system fails, they will eject through the canopy without injury.
In other words, the canopy glass has a charge in it that fractures the glass and if it fails the seat is designed to power through it. This is different than most designs where the canopy comes off the rails when ejecting and the glass is shed intact. I don't know enough about the seats to pass judgement but wonder if the seats were fired and the ejection sequence failed and incapacitated the crew.
I find my self puzzled and sad. I can only estimate, as above, something like an LOC (Ugly Jet Captain may be right) and (possibly) a bird strike. Bird strikes are not all that uncommon in that training area.
There was an accident back in the early 80's in a T-34C where a turkey buzzard hit the aircraft full on. The student was knocked out for a bit, the disoriented IP could not get the controls back as the student was bodily slumped over controls. Unable to control the aircraft, the IP bailed out. (No Martin Baker sear in the T-34C). Fortunately, the student revived before the plane hit the ground. He flew on. He made his way back (IIRC had not yet soloed at that point). Happy ending, could have been tragic.
To put the pieces of the puzzle together in this case ... a guess follows. I only offer one because of my familiarity with accidents in Navy Priimary training going back to the early 1980's ... I flew a T-6 a few times but never NATOPS qualified in one.
In this case a bird strike might disorient the crew, and then I'm not sure what happens for it to end up as it did.
How long the IP is trying to fly out of it before realizing "time to eject" remains unclear.
OR (and I am going to guess that this is more likely)
If this was an instrument flight, IP is up front with Student in back and under the bag. With a turkey buzzard style bird strike, per above, IP is possibly disabled.
Student under the bag, a disabled IP may not be conscious enough to command eject.
Student may take a while to realize that things have gone horribly wrong ... and once they do realize it's too late?
OK, that's one way that we might have lost that crew, but it could also be horribly wrong due to lack of details like "what kind of training flight was this?"
(ETA: I don't know/remember enough about the T-6Bs O2 system to guess at how that system might contribute to a loss of consciousness event. Too many details not synching up at this point).
Our two lost colleagues are shown here.
You now fly with angels' wings.
Rest in peace.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 27th Oct 2020 at 15:04.
Glad you could jump in here, Wolf. You may be the youngest Nasal Radiator to have gone thru Whiting, but possibly T28B may have you beat.
Bubba's usual FltRdr24 plot might offer a clue. The other plot doesn't show altitude on the fairly long st course, then the end. Without an airspeed sensor broadcasting, looks like we are looking at ground speed. So a near vertical flight path resembles what we see. Also, a stall/spin usually has lots more wreckage and the seats should have been used. The T-34's didn't have seats, best I recall. But this new bird has good ones.
The planes at Whiting have been under suspicion last year or two for incidents involving the OGOGS, so I would not rule out incapacitation of both folks. I don't think a bird strike up high would cause complete loss of control.
Regardless, as it is a sad day for all of us in the Panhandle. Many, many Navy, Army, Coast Guard and USAF aviators here. Active and retired.
So another nickel on the grass for you future aviators, and let's see what they can find to prevent another loss.
Bubba's usual FltRdr24 plot might offer a clue. The other plot doesn't show altitude on the fairly long st course, then the end. Without an airspeed sensor broadcasting, looks like we are looking at ground speed. So a near vertical flight path resembles what we see. Also, a stall/spin usually has lots more wreckage and the seats should have been used. The T-34's didn't have seats, best I recall. But this new bird has good ones.
The planes at Whiting have been under suspicion last year or two for incidents involving the OGOGS, so I would not rule out incapacitation of both folks. I don't think a bird strike up high would cause complete loss of control.
Regardless, as it is a sad day for all of us in the Panhandle. Many, many Navy, Army, Coast Guard and USAF aviators here. Active and retired.
So another nickel on the grass for you future aviators, and let's see what they can find to prevent another loss.
Last edited by gums; 26th Oct 2020 at 22:14. Reason: corrections
Question again;;Does it have Command Ejection seats..?..LW50,as you have flown one,you should know....?
The descent from 8k down to about 2k seems steady ,taking about 3.5mins,with speed gradually reducing......
Does the Obogs give an `airmix`...? at lower altitudes..?
The descent from 8k down to about 2k seems steady ,taking about 3.5mins,with speed gradually reducing......
Does the Obogs give an `airmix`...? at lower altitudes..?
Yes - the MB Mk 16 seat for Texan II does have Command Ejection. See the MB website and click on the Specifications tab:
https://martin-baker.com/products/mk...-t-6-texan-ii/
https://martin-baker.com/products/mk...-t-6-texan-ii/
Ugly Jet Captain, can you please explain the following statement?
That would indicate a spin and in the case of a Texan it would be flat as the tail is not stalled in a spin(trainer).
Here's what the impact site of a T-6 in an inverted spin looks like.
https://www.airforcemag.com/investig...may-t-6-crash/
USAF instructor with an Italian trainee in 2019, out of Sheppard AFB. Two successful ejections on this one.
Somewhat different looking than the Foley site.
edit: Command ejection, ISS selector has to be in the both position.
edit: T-6A/B is not prone to flat spins, all are generally quite nose low.....upright, inverted or progressive ones.
https://www.airforcemag.com/investig...may-t-6-crash/
USAF instructor with an Italian trainee in 2019, out of Sheppard AFB. Two successful ejections on this one.
Somewhat different looking than the Foley site.
edit: Command ejection, ISS selector has to be in the both position.
edit: T-6A/B is not prone to flat spins, all are generally quite nose low.....upright, inverted or progressive ones.
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Runaway...My point was that a trainer with aerodynamic bits on the tail spins "flatter" than a fighter or other high perf aircraft. My understanding is it spins nose low but flatter than a high perf aircraft making a flatter impact more likely. This looks to have hit very flat and from the vertical. Sorry if that came off as a conclusion; it was more of an observation as to the reason the impact had the two top prop blades intact and very little forward motion evident at the site. It does not look like it was flown in control to impact was the main point I cluttered with the tail talk.
You may be the youngest Nasal Radiator to have gone thru Whiting
Good point, Megan I was referring to being one of the youngest regular posters on this forum.
Secondly, I made the comment about speed and altitude plot because the one we had when I posted showed ground track only, and up to the point of impact the course was fairly straight.
Secondly, I made the comment about speed and altitude plot because the one we had when I posted showed ground track only, and up to the point of impact the course was fairly straight.
One of the VT-6 IPs brought a Trojan home with a dead engine through an overcast (IIRC ceilings were around 800 or 1200 feet, he was on an instrument hop and lost the engine but my memory may be failing badly). A remarkable save.
But this new bird has good ones.
The planes at Whiting have been under suspicion last year or two for incidents involving the OGOGS, so I would not rule out incapacitation of both folks. I don't think a bird strike up high would cause complete loss of control.
And Good Lord: if I'm young, I'll need to order a case of Geritol for the whole room!
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Well, I know we always say that 30 miles is 50ks, but this site says 48.28:
https://www.metric-conversions.org/l...kilometers.htm
https://www.metric-conversions.org/l...kilometers.htm