US Navy TexanT6 crash fatal 10-23
no CVR as such
I'd need to ask around on the debrief tool's audio capabilities.
Your relative is probably a faster source of info
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Thanks for the input. I was using LOC for loss of control. I really doubt they GLOC'd and flew for 6 minutes in a standard rate in terms of speed, descent rate, and heading towards an outlying field. There is one south of them that is used for training and it appears they left the box and were headed there. In terms of high key to the pattern they would have been heading down to about 2000 feet so they were on profile. It does not appear they were doing any high G maneuvering up until the OCF in the last two track reports. I did not carry the course changes into the last two entries but as mentioned it was about 1.65 degrees per second in the 60 second track (which is suspect with that large of a gap) and the, what I surmise to be a continued left, turn to 054 degrees at a rate of 5.75 which is steeper than a stand 3 degree per second standard rate. Again, the rapid descent from about 3500 feet to the ground in less than a minute is the question. There just isn't a lot going on prior to the OCF as there wouldn't be as they make an approach to a outlying field for entry and overhead. Hopefully an answer comes out. I just don't think from the data it is crew incapacitation.
I can still remember quite a bit about my basic training in the Navy T-34, but nothing sticks in what's left of my brain like that skidded turn stall lesson. There was no demo; just the instructor talking me through the maneuver as you describe. As I continued to feed in rudder and opposite aileron everything seemed pretty normal and then BAM, we rolled to the outside and were inverted in the blink of an eye. It was quite spectacular and a great lesson. It was explained to me that the cause of these departures from controlled flight were usually caused by a reluctance to use a steep enough turn, but rather trying to "rudder the plane around the corner" while maintaining a reduced bank angle with opposite aileron.
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I will post when anything is made public. From the stand up of the squadron post incident I don't think there was anything that jumped out at the investigators as the aircraft in the squadron and across the system all returned to service without any restrictions or reinspections. I did hear that the subject aircraft had made an initial inbound call to the satellite field (Barin which is Navy use only) and were inbound. That would preclude any maneuvering or stall demonstrations as they were about 5 miles out and lining up for an overhead arrival in high key. I am sticking with something that upset the flight like a bird strike given the low altitude and almost immediate OCF and rapid loss of altitude.
One other thing noted to me was since this a had a free turbine the prop blades would stop on impact and not be driven to curl the blades on the prop as in a direct drive engine like a piston. It very well could be that these blades as pictured were not feathered, rather that is the pitch they were in and they did not display rotational damage due to being a free spooling turbine. That seems likely as the time to impact was so short from controlled flight and feathering the prop wouldn't be an expected reaction to a OCF.
One other thing noted to me was since this a had a free turbine the prop blades would stop on impact and not be driven to curl the blades on the prop as in a direct drive engine like a piston. It very well could be that these blades as pictured were not feathered, rather that is the pitch they were in and they did not display rotational damage due to being a free spooling turbine. That seems likely as the time to impact was so short from controlled flight and feathering the prop wouldn't be an expected reaction to a OCF.
One other thing noted to me was since this a had a free turbine the prop blades would stop on impact and not be driven to curl the blades on the prop as in a direct drive engine like a piston. It very well could be that these blades as pictured were not feathered, rather that is the pitch they were in and they did not display rotational damage due to being a free spooling turbine. That seems likely as the time to impact was so short from controlled flight and feathering the prop wouldn't be an expected reaction to a OCF.[/QUOTE]
If memory serves UJC although not direct drive the few crashes I have seen still resulted in prop distortion. Tip speed would be reasonably high. I will let the people that have more recent experience comment further.
If memory serves UJC although not direct drive the few crashes I have seen still resulted in prop distortion. Tip speed would be reasonably high. I will let the people that have more recent experience comment further.
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One other thing noted to me was since this a had a free turbine the prop blades would stop on impact and not be driven to curl the blades on the prop as in a direct drive engine like a piston. It very well could be that these blades as pictured were not feathered, rather that is the pitch they were in and they did not display rotational damage due to being a free spooling turbine. That seems likely as the time to impact was so short from controlled flight and feathering the prop wouldn't be an expected reaction to a OCF.
Cheers,
Grog
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Accident report
It seems the accident report has been shared with the media. I am not yet allowed to share a link as I mainly lurk on this forum and do not have enough posts. I have an interest in naval aviation which is why I kept an eye on any news coming out.
The newsreport I saw was by NBC 15 News. I cannot find an original document.
Sad story.
The newsreport I saw was by NBC 15 News. I cannot find an original document.
Sad story.
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It seems the accident report has been shared with the media. I am not yet allowed to share a link as I mainly lurk on this forum and do not have enough posts. I have an interest in naval aviation which is why I kept an eye on any news coming out. The news report I saw was by NBC 15 News. I cannot find an original document. Sad story.
&
NBC 15 report: REPORT: US Navy implements changes following fatal air crash near Foley | WPMI (mynbc15.com)
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 11th Jan 2022 at 13:30. Reason: NBC 15 URL
Salute!
Tnx for the link, Spaz. I do not use the local NWF rag due to it being paywalled, even with a hurricane bearing down.
A sad crash, and something still does not compute. Guess I search for and read the USN accident report.
Gums sends...
Tnx for the link, Spaz. I do not use the local NWF rag due to it being paywalled, even with a hurricane bearing down.
A sad crash, and something still does not compute. Guess I search for and read the USN accident report.
Gums sends...
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NWFDN report PDF attached 6 pages : https://www.nwfdailynews.com/story/n...tt/9088581002/
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 12th Jan 2022 at 02:21. Reason: luck
A couple of points have me scratching my head, but it all starts with awareness of
"I am in an OCF condition"
This assessment sometimes takes more time to realize than others.
After a bit of looking, the decision time (per the NATOPS and the CNATRA OCF syllabus for the T-6A/B) for ejection is basically "if in OCF, or still in OCF, at or below 6000', Eject"
(Excerpted from the pdf SpazSinbad kindly linked to)
It is noteworthy, to me, that not too long before they entered this area near Barin field, they'd been (per other information) doing high work which may have included stall and / or spin training.
This is a common profile in primary training: you go and do your high work first, and then you head to an outlying field to do some landing pattern work.
It is not unusual for the transition from high work to pattern work be along the lines of "You have X malfunction {simulated} " and the student then assesses "How do I set up an emergency landing profile?" and so on which often ends up being an entry to the outlying field at High Key. (Not sure how many hundreds of times I did that in the years that I instructed...) The Wing commander notes a high AOB turn being abnormal for that phase of flight and uses the term "perplexing" - which it is.
I choose not to speculate further ~ yes, I have a few ideas on what may have happened but there is more than one way this could have come to pass. If the formal report (I suspect that the JAG investigation is what is being referred to here, not the mishap report) cannot present a clearer cause and effect I'll not muddy the waters.
@gums: I suspect that if you poke around the Naval Safety Center's web site you may get the "public release" version of that report, but those tend to be sparse on details.
"I am in an OCF condition"
This assessment sometimes takes more time to realize than others.
After a bit of looking, the decision time (per the NATOPS and the CNATRA OCF syllabus for the T-6A/B) for ejection is basically "if in OCF, or still in OCF, at or below 6000', Eject"
(Excerpted from the pdf SpazSinbad kindly linked to)
1. Westendorf noted that Ross and Garrett — it is not clear which of them were at the controls at the time — stalled the aircraft {snip} as they approached the airfeld near Foley, a circumstance "which is abnormal for that phase of fight." Westendorf's review also notes that the two flyers "failed to initiate out-of-control flight procedures" after the stall and crashed 22 seconds later from an altitude of 3,800 feet. Also, Westendorf notes that "despite the crew's time and altitude after stall entry, neither member-initiated ejection." "... (T)aking appropriate action in these situations may have saved their lives," he concluded.
Similarly, Marine Corps Col. Jefrey Pavelko, commander of Training Air Wing Five at NAS Whiting Field, noted in his review the "... disastrous, perplexing end to this fight ..." as he also noted that a high-banked left turn preceding the stall, the lack of out-of-control fight procedures, and the failure to eject from the aircraft... remain unexplained ... ."
Similarly, Marine Corps Col. Jefrey Pavelko, commander of Training Air Wing Five at NAS Whiting Field, noted in his review the "... disastrous, perplexing end to this fight ..." as he also noted that a high-banked left turn preceding the stall, the lack of out-of-control fight procedures, and the failure to eject from the aircraft... remain unexplained ... ."
This is a common profile in primary training: you go and do your high work first, and then you head to an outlying field to do some landing pattern work.
It is not unusual for the transition from high work to pattern work be along the lines of "You have X malfunction {simulated} " and the student then assesses "How do I set up an emergency landing profile?" and so on which often ends up being an entry to the outlying field at High Key. (Not sure how many hundreds of times I did that in the years that I instructed...) The Wing commander notes a high AOB turn being abnormal for that phase of flight and uses the term "perplexing" - which it is.
I choose not to speculate further ~ yes, I have a few ideas on what may have happened but there is more than one way this could have come to pass. If the formal report (I suspect that the JAG investigation is what is being referred to here, not the mishap report) cannot present a clearer cause and effect I'll not muddy the waters.
@gums: I suspect that if you poke around the Naval Safety Center's web site you may get the "public release" version of that report, but those tend to be sparse on details.
Salute!
Yeah, Wolf, I looked at Navy Safety for about 10 minutes today and will have to ask the Navy directly if any accident reports are public. Go ahead and try, but meanwhile I am gonna ask the news reporter where the stuff came from.
==================
Meanwhile, one of my famous flights early in the training game involved entering the pattern the wrong way. It was a simulated flameout. Was high enuf when realizing I was setting up for the spiral, and while the IP was chuckling I cut across to a decent downwind for the correct runway and made it. So a sudden high bank angle and stall opportunity was there for me. Years later I had the real deal in my Dragonfly as far as the flameout, and was very high and my flight lead and I used the alt to see how many feet required for a 360 - it was the first deadstick landing for the type and being a new plane had no published speed or procedure. Made it down great and stayed on rwy even with damaged right main gear(was shot up fairly well, heh heh).
Still too many questions for this old man, and I am sticking with some kinda incapacitation incident. Other than the AF447 discussion, I have not frequently commented on the crashes. But this one is close to home and bothers me.
Gums sends...
Yeah, Wolf, I looked at Navy Safety for about 10 minutes today and will have to ask the Navy directly if any accident reports are public. Go ahead and try, but meanwhile I am gonna ask the news reporter where the stuff came from.
==================
Meanwhile, one of my famous flights early in the training game involved entering the pattern the wrong way. It was a simulated flameout. Was high enuf when realizing I was setting up for the spiral, and while the IP was chuckling I cut across to a decent downwind for the correct runway and made it. So a sudden high bank angle and stall opportunity was there for me. Years later I had the real deal in my Dragonfly as far as the flameout, and was very high and my flight lead and I used the alt to see how many feet required for a 360 - it was the first deadstick landing for the type and being a new plane had no published speed or procedure. Made it down great and stayed on rwy even with damaged right main gear(was shot up fairly well, heh heh).
Still too many questions for this old man, and I am sticking with some kinda incapacitation incident. Other than the AF447 discussion, I have not frequently commented on the crashes. But this one is close to home and bothers me.
Gums sends...
