Judge Bans F-15s from Urban Training in Idaho
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Judge Bans F-15s from Urban Training in Idaho
Surprised a local judge has that level of authority.....
U.S. Judge bans F-15E and F-15SG aircrews from urban training in Idaho ? Alert 5
U.S. Judge bans F-15E and F-15SG aircrews from urban training in Idaho
U.S. Magistrate Judge Candy Dale has ruled that the U.S. Air Force did not carry out a thorough environmental impact statement for training in nine urban centers in Idaho.
Those training flights involve the use of two to four F-15E and F-15SG aircrews plus plain-clothed soldiers on the ground to simulate urban combat, the Associated Press reports.
The judge agreed with seven Boise residents and an environmental group that filed the lawsuit that the service failed to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act when it approved those training flights.
Court documents show that those flights will take place between 10,000 to 18,000 ft.
https://apnews.com/article/environme...7cb7822ec4ce8b
.....”There appears to be no quantitative assessment undertaken in the EA to assess the noise impact of overhead flights upon areas that experience background noise at levels much less than the assumed average,” Dale wrote.
She also said the Air Force didn’t address sleep interference the fights might cause, adequately back up its claim that the flights wouldn’t interfere with people trying to have a conversation, or support its conclusion that birds and wildlife would not be affected by the noise........
U.S. Judge bans F-15E and F-15SG aircrews from urban training in Idaho ? Alert 5
U.S. Judge bans F-15E and F-15SG aircrews from urban training in Idaho
U.S. Magistrate Judge Candy Dale has ruled that the U.S. Air Force did not carry out a thorough environmental impact statement for training in nine urban centers in Idaho.
Those training flights involve the use of two to four F-15E and F-15SG aircrews plus plain-clothed soldiers on the ground to simulate urban combat, the Associated Press reports.
The judge agreed with seven Boise residents and an environmental group that filed the lawsuit that the service failed to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act when it approved those training flights.
Court documents show that those flights will take place between 10,000 to 18,000 ft.
https://apnews.com/article/environme...7cb7822ec4ce8b
.....”There appears to be no quantitative assessment undertaken in the EA to assess the noise impact of overhead flights upon areas that experience background noise at levels much less than the assumed average,” Dale wrote.
She also said the Air Force didn’t address sleep interference the fights might cause, adequately back up its claim that the flights wouldn’t interfere with people trying to have a conversation, or support its conclusion that birds and wildlife would not be affected by the noise........
Laws are there to be applied to protect people, often from themsleves, Judge saw the way that these were being disregarded and insisted that it be applied. Judgement can be appealed against in higher courts or those not adhering to the laws, can look at ways in which they can adapt behaviour to avoid falling foul of judges.
I think majority of people will be in agreement with that ruling. Otherwise you end up with Military stating we can do as we wish, the laws do not apply to us. How does that one work in other countrys around the globe ?. Badly for civilian populations I would suggest hence easier to be in compliance with reasoanble laws.
I think majority of people will be in agreement with that ruling. Otherwise you end up with Military stating we can do as we wish, the laws do not apply to us. How does that one work in other countrys around the globe ?. Badly for civilian populations I would suggest hence easier to be in compliance with reasoanble laws.
In Australia training flights or display flights by military aircraft over major populated areas are pre advised to the communities via public advice through the media etc. No problems. We loved our F-111's flying over Brisbane at 200 feet down the city centre over the river followed by a "dump and burn" on climbing out. Multiple aircraft. Sadly the Pigs have gone and now it's Super Hornets/Growlers albeit without the fire show but plenty of noise. Army helicopters do training in and around our big cities often. To us its the sounds of freedom!
Salute!
Not a new tactic by the anti-military or NIMBY folks that have their freedom but do not appreciate what others have sacrificed for them. Go to courts versus elected U.S. congressional or state officials. The EPA environmental impact studies and such have not only slowed down basing of our new F-35, but have also resulted in reducing the planned number at a few places like where I live.
We have had areas all over the U.S. for decades that limit overflight or other activities by the USAF, USA , USMC, USN et al. Our low level training routes had many "no fly" circles and a small jog left or right was enuf to avoid complaints.
I feel the grunts moving thru the streets with M-4 guns and serious armor and such might disturb the "natives" more than the Eagles.
Gums sends...
Not a new tactic by the anti-military or NIMBY folks that have their freedom but do not appreciate what others have sacrificed for them. Go to courts versus elected U.S. congressional or state officials. The EPA environmental impact studies and such have not only slowed down basing of our new F-35, but have also resulted in reducing the planned number at a few places like where I live.
We have had areas all over the U.S. for decades that limit overflight or other activities by the USAF, USA , USMC, USN et al. Our low level training routes had many "no fly" circles and a small jog left or right was enuf to avoid complaints.
I feel the grunts moving thru the streets with M-4 guns and serious armor and such might disturb the "natives" more than the Eagles.
Gums sends...
Just spent a few days down the coast from Sydney and it's a never ending parade of low flying Navy, Army and Airforce airframes coming through at low level following the coastline. Some days you can almost set your clock to the daily Seahawk roaring past nice and low.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.michigansthumb.com/news/...n-15770540.php
US Air Force appeals ruling against urban training in Idaho
BOISE, Idaho (AP) — The U.S. Air Force is appealing a federal court ruling preventing exercises that had military jets coordinating with plain-clothed soldiers on the ground in cities in Idaho as part of an urban warfare training program.
The Air Force filed the appeal with the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday. The military says air support for ground forces is increasingly required in urban combat areas.
The U.S. Justice Department, which is representing the Air Force, didn't respond Wednesday to a request for comment sent through its online media inquiry portal. Monday was the 60-day deadline for the Air Force to appeal.......
US Air Force appeals ruling against urban training in Idaho
BOISE, Idaho (AP) — The U.S. Air Force is appealing a federal court ruling preventing exercises that had military jets coordinating with plain-clothed soldiers on the ground in cities in Idaho as part of an urban warfare training program.
The Air Force filed the appeal with the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday. The military says air support for ground forces is increasingly required in urban combat areas.
The U.S. Justice Department, which is representing the Air Force, didn't respond Wednesday to a request for comment sent through its online media inquiry portal. Monday was the 60-day deadline for the Air Force to appeal.......
Well there are 49 other states where the USAF or indeed the US military industrial complex can choose to spend its money. If I were the Boss of the USAF I would be making noises about so doing!
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Does Idaho not need defending? In time of conflict they might think otherwise.
My father used to tell the tale of how he, in WW2, (he was then a young boy) and an old lady, passed in the street in UK. Both looked up at a noisy, low flying twin engined aircraft that shot past not far above them. She said;: “Thank goodness it’s one of ours...”
My father, noting the big black crosses painted on it, ran off, shouting “It’s NOT, missus!”
My father used to tell the tale of how he, in WW2, (he was then a young boy) and an old lady, passed in the street in UK. Both looked up at a noisy, low flying twin engined aircraft that shot past not far above them. She said;: “Thank goodness it’s one of ours...”
My father, noting the big black crosses painted on it, ran off, shouting “It’s NOT, missus!”
Last edited by ShyTorque; 4th Dec 2020 at 16:17.
So, Idahoan’s may lose some sleep as jets fly 20,000 ft above them while training to do a difficult mission. So sorry. Do they also lose sleep over collateral civilian casualties from an air strike in a far off land? Not as much as the brave pilots and mission planners, I suspect. How many other nations take such care to prevent this?
Freedom has its costs, and they must be bourne by more than those in uniform. So, while they walk around and socialize all day long without masks, maybe they can just take a nap after losing some precious sleep the night before.
I hope the courts dismiss the case against the Air Force and allow them to do the responsible thing.
Freedom has its costs, and they must be bourne by more than those in uniform. So, while they walk around and socialize all day long without masks, maybe they can just take a nap after losing some precious sleep the night before.
I hope the courts dismiss the case against the Air Force and allow them to do the responsible thing.
Fonsini - yes Conflict of Wings was on Talking Pictures TV recently, a station which specialises in old 'B' movies and half forgotten TV shows. Nice little picture, evocative of an England that is long gone (as have the Vampires) and starring John Gregson, who seemed to be in every other British film made around then.
Talking of films, maybe the local residents regard the place where they live as "Their Private Idaho"!
Talking of films, maybe the local residents regard the place where they live as "Their Private Idaho"!
So, Idahoan’s may lose some sleep as jets fly 20,000 ft above them while training to do a difficult mission. So sorry. Do they also lose sleep over collateral civilian casualties from an air strike in a far off land? Not as much as the brave pilots and mission planners, I suspect. How many other nations take such care to prevent this?
Freedom has its costs, and they must be bourne by more than those in uniform. So, while they walk around and socialize all day long without masks, maybe they can just take a nap after losing some precious sleep the night before.
I hope the courts dismiss the case against the Air Force and allow them to do the responsible thing.
I hope the courts dismiss the case against the Air Force and allow them to do the responsible thing.
Fonsini - yes Conflict of Wings was on Talking Pictures TV recently, a station which specialises in old 'B' movies and half forgotten TV shows. Nice little picture, evocative of an England that is long gone (as have the Vampires) and starring John Gregson, who seemed to be in every other British film made around then.
Salute!
For those of you in the Motherland, folks from The People's Republic of California have been moving to Idaho last 10 or 15 years or so to escape the high taxes and other madness. They can sell their $500,000 house and buy a ranch in Idaho or even Utah or Montana for cash! But last few years some have brought their politics with them and they are not used to the sound of freedom.
The base at Mountain Home has been an active USAF installation for a very long time, and was popular if you liked the outdoors and skiing. So complaints are likely from the recent refugees outta the left coast.
Gums sends...
For those of you in the Motherland, folks from The People's Republic of California have been moving to Idaho last 10 or 15 years or so to escape the high taxes and other madness. They can sell their $500,000 house and buy a ranch in Idaho or even Utah or Montana for cash! But last few years some have brought their politics with them and they are not used to the sound of freedom.
The base at Mountain Home has been an active USAF installation for a very long time, and was popular if you liked the outdoors and skiing. So complaints are likely from the recent refugees outta the left coast.
Gums sends...
I'm from the 'People's Republic of California' and have moved to a number of different states. Should I not have been allowed to?
'Don't bring your politics', 'don't sell or buy property', that certainly echoes 'sound of freedom'.
Keep those 'refugees outta the left coast' outta the exclusive skiing and outdoors areas evidently proprietary to MHAFB personnel. Sound of freedom?
C'mon.
'Don't bring your politics', 'don't sell or buy property', that certainly echoes 'sound of freedom'.
Keep those 'refugees outta the left coast' outta the exclusive skiing and outdoors areas evidently proprietary to MHAFB personnel. Sound of freedom?
C'mon.
Probably by not going to foreign lands that nobody has ever heard of to perform military actions.
So you are fully in favour of military being able to do as it likes and the civilian population have zero rights in court to challenge that. Worrying that you believe that is "Freedom".
So you are fully in favour of military being able to do as it likes and the civilian population have zero rights in court to challenge that. Worrying that you believe that is "Freedom".
I favor a responsibly well-trained and competent military, capable of performing its missions effectively with minimal collateral damage.
All things considered, I don’t much worry about people who claim to lose sleep whining about those who do sacrifice for our freedom. Earplugs are cheap.
Folks, the article doesn't say, "7 leftists from California relocated to Idaho to make a killing in the real estate business, found Idaho's supply of ear plugs inadequate and are consequently suing with the intent of degrading USAF urban combat capability."
It says 7 citizens of Boise are asking USAF to check all the required boxes before a determination is made.
It says 7 citizens of Boise are asking USAF to check all the required boxes before a determination is made.
Folks, the article doesn't say, "7 leftists from California relocated to Idaho to make a killing in the real estate business, found Idaho's supply of ear plugs inadequate and are consequently suing with the intent of degrading USAF urban combat capability."
It says 7 citizens of Boise are asking USAF to check all the required boxes before a determination is made.
It says 7 citizens of Boise are asking USAF to check all the required boxes before a determination is made.
Doing as it “likes?” Actually the military is under civilian control.
I favor a responsibly well-trained and competent military, capable of performing its missions effectively with minimal collateral damage.
All things considered, I don’t much worry about people who claim to lose sleep whining about those who do sacrifice for our freedom. Earplugs are cheap.
I favor a responsibly well-trained and competent military, capable of performing its missions effectively with minimal collateral damage.
All things considered, I don’t much worry about people who claim to lose sleep whining about those who do sacrifice for our freedom. Earplugs are cheap.
A court dismisses a case if it is without foundation, otherwise it hears a case and makes a judgement on the case before it. Sadly you don't seem to believe in their right to even bring a case becasue it is the military.
I believe they have the right to bring a case and let the court decide based on the arguements made and the applicable law. Eitehr side may not like the judgement but getting the court to decide may be best.
Someone referred to "should have gone to congress member or senator". In a functioning democracy a voter an elected representative should be happy to do so. Sadly the US has got itself into a position that a person elected in making representations on behalf of voters may find next election they have a slogan used against them.
"We elected this person to represent us BUT he acted against the USAF. Elect someone who loves our military".................. Vote G Khan / A Hitler etc etc for Congress this fall. This ad is sponsored by lots of dodgy money that we hide behind.
Last edited by racedo; 6th Dec 2020 at 21:55.
Salute!
Tink I touched a sensitive area.
Guess many folks that are compaining live where their freedoms are protected by other invisible or distant folks that have risked their skinny a$$$es so they, the comfortable folks, can live in country estates and listen to the birds, maybe drive a few miles to a big grocery store, have electricity, maybe internet via Dsl on landline.
As a prophet said long ago, you will get the government you deserve ( voted for in some countries).
Back to my cave now
Gums opines....
Tink I touched a sensitive area.
Guess many folks that are compaining live where their freedoms are protected by other invisible or distant folks that have risked their skinny a$$$es so they, the comfortable folks, can live in country estates and listen to the birds, maybe drive a few miles to a big grocery store, have electricity, maybe internet via Dsl on landline.
As a prophet said long ago, you will get the government you deserve ( voted for in some countries).
Back to my cave now
Gums opines....
Last edited by gums; 6th Dec 2020 at 22:08.