C130J NCA
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C130J NCA
Apologies if discussed before (but can't find it) - I have seen a number of cockpit photos recently of C130Js conducting TS training with a Non-Commissioned Aircrew sat in the jump seat (and one wearing a multi-engine tactics instructor badge). I am assuming these are ALMs (I know...WSOps) who have a supplementary TS role on the flt deck but would be interested to know if this is the case and if so what exactly their role is?
Last edited by Tedderboy; 7th Oct 2020 at 12:29. Reason: Add image
It was a sad day when the Flight Engineers went.
They were good value in so many ways.
We generally had a couple on SH squadrons.
lsh
They were good value in so many ways.
We generally had a couple on SH squadrons.
lsh
Last edited by lsh; 7th Oct 2020 at 18:22. Reason: spelling
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I never had a badge on my uniform saying what I was.
What is this fixation these days with Aircrew badges plastered all over their flying overalls? Are we compensating for something, or just trying to keep up with the Americans?
What is this fixation these days with Aircrew badges plastered all over their flying overalls? Are we compensating for something, or just trying to keep up with the Americans?
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MPN11
The early Chinook RAF badges issued with the Chinook superimposed over the Roundel, the Chinooks were colour coded to indicate who they were presented too, Gold Silver etc.
The early Chinook RAF badges issued with the Chinook superimposed over the Roundel, the Chinooks were colour coded to indicate who they were presented too, Gold Silver etc.
Sitting between us on take-off or landing it was the Eng who invariably first spotted the slightest unwarranted twitch of a gauge. Glad they could help out on the SH Sqns!
As to Qualified Multi-Engine Tactics Instructors; no, I don't know either.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 8th Oct 2020 at 12:21. Reason: Numbers, dear boy, numbers!
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C-130J crew model has an ALM in the middle seat for LL lookout, especially at night on gogs, and for lending some SA to the drivers when doing some of the more high-end stuff. Another ALM is down the back for air-despatch and can be joined by the one up on the flight-deck for loads which require two crewmen to drop. Their role is mission-based and not to do with the basic operation of the aircraft which is still a 2-man job. The galley is still within arm's reach to the left so they can still do their primary role!
A QMETI is the AWC's attempt to develop a QWI-esque post-grad course for ME aircrew, but since there are no Ws you can't be a QWI.
A QMETI is the AWC's attempt to develop a QWI-esque post-grad course for ME aircrew, but since there are no Ws you can't be a QWI.
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The J Loadie can operate in a similar way to an SH crewman, and is a key part of the Team on the Flight Deck in many of the higher end uses of the acft, making them QMETIs is a natural progression of that role. The RAF very much leads the way in this method of operating the acft and is something some of the smaller Nations that have brought it will need to get their heads around as they move to make full use of the huge capabilities that the acft has.
Nowadays be it USAF, USN, USMC, USCG , US Army only have Wings brevet , squadron patch, and odd manufacturers patch and if usaf, the command patch on right breast.
If there’s a multitude of deployments say with Marine Corps or navy then it’s Swen and Seen on their nomex Flight jacket or aircrew bag.
cheers
@MPN: C'mon, you can't keep up with the Americans (grabbing hat and umbrella)
Due to the confusion between the Rotary Wing and Fixed Wing roles, the Weapon Systems Operators (WSOps) were renamed WSOp (RW) Cmn (ie. for Crewmen) and WSOp (ME) ALM (ie. for Air Loadmasters). This change was made about 2 years ago and also was used to re-identify the various sub-cadres. Here is the full list of WSOps used in flying roles:
WSOp (ISR) EW - electronic warfare gurus for P8, RJ, Sentry, etc...
WSOp (ISR) Aco - acoustic gurus for P8
WSOp (ISR) Lg - airborne linguists for RJ
WSOp (ISR) Lnd - sensor ops for Shadow, Defender and Reaper
WSOp (ISR) Eng - air engineers for Sentry
WSOp (ME) ALM - loadies for C130J, BAe146, A400M, C17
WSOp (ME) MSO - mission system officer for Voyager (they also do Pursar for AT duties with the Cabin Crew)
WSOp (RW) Cmn - helicopter crewman
Then the other Mission Aircrew are the Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) in the following current flying roles:
WSO (ISR) Nav - flight deck navigators on the Sentry and RJ
WSO (ISR) Air - mission aircrew used on RJ, Sentry, Sentinel
WSO (ISR) Mar - mission aircrew on P8
WSO (ISR) Lnd - sensor operator on Reaper
There are also commissioned versions of the above WSOps conducting roles and then there WSO (FJ) that are sadly without a jet anymore.
WSOp (ISR) EW - electronic warfare gurus for P8, RJ, Sentry, etc...
WSOp (ISR) Aco - acoustic gurus for P8
WSOp (ISR) Lg - airborne linguists for RJ
WSOp (ISR) Lnd - sensor ops for Shadow, Defender and Reaper
WSOp (ISR) Eng - air engineers for Sentry
WSOp (ME) ALM - loadies for C130J, BAe146, A400M, C17
WSOp (ME) MSO - mission system officer for Voyager (they also do Pursar for AT duties with the Cabin Crew)
WSOp (RW) Cmn - helicopter crewman
Then the other Mission Aircrew are the Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) in the following current flying roles:
WSO (ISR) Nav - flight deck navigators on the Sentry and RJ
WSO (ISR) Air - mission aircrew used on RJ, Sentry, Sentinel
WSO (ISR) Mar - mission aircrew on P8
WSO (ISR) Lnd - sensor operator on Reaper
There are also commissioned versions of the above WSOps conducting roles and then there WSO (FJ) that are sadly without a jet anymore.
Cheers LJ - I didn't even know all those existed - wonder why MSO = "Mission System Officer" not "Mission System Operator" to fit in with the long established WSOp (...operator) vs WSO (...officer) - not likely to ever meet one - just curious.
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Due to the confusion between the Rotary Wing and Fixed Wing roles, the Weapon Systems Operators (WSOps) were renamed WSOp (RW) Cmn (ie. for Crewmen) and WSOp (ME) ALM (ie. for Air Loadmasters). This change was made about 2 years ago and also was used to re-identify the various sub-cadres. Here is the full list of WSOps used in flying roles:
WSOp (ISR) EW - electronic warfare gurus for P8, RJ, Sentry, etc...
WSOp (ISR) Aco - acoustic gurus for P8
WSOp (ISR) Lg - airborne linguists for RJ
WSOp (ISR) Lnd - sensor ops for Shadow, Defender and Reaper
WSOp (ISR) Eng - air engineers for Sentry
WSOp (ME) ALM - loadies for C130J, BAe146, A400M, C17
WSOp (ME) MSO - mission system officer for Voyager (they also do Pursar for AT duties with the Cabin Crew)
WSOp (RW) Cmn - helicopter crewman
Then the other Mission Aircrew are the Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) in the following current flying roles:
WSO (ISR) Nav - flight deck navigators on the Sentry and RJ
WSO (ISR) Air - mission aircrew used on RJ, Sentry, Sentinel
WSO (ISR) Mar - mission aircrew on P8
WSO (ISR) Lnd - sensor operator on Reaper
There are also commissioned versions of the above WSOps conducting roles and then there WSO (FJ) that are sadly without a jet anymore.
WSOp (ISR) EW - electronic warfare gurus for P8, RJ, Sentry, etc...
WSOp (ISR) Aco - acoustic gurus for P8
WSOp (ISR) Lg - airborne linguists for RJ
WSOp (ISR) Lnd - sensor ops for Shadow, Defender and Reaper
WSOp (ISR) Eng - air engineers for Sentry
WSOp (ME) ALM - loadies for C130J, BAe146, A400M, C17
WSOp (ME) MSO - mission system officer for Voyager (they also do Pursar for AT duties with the Cabin Crew)
WSOp (RW) Cmn - helicopter crewman
Then the other Mission Aircrew are the Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) in the following current flying roles:
WSO (ISR) Nav - flight deck navigators on the Sentry and RJ
WSO (ISR) Air - mission aircrew used on RJ, Sentry, Sentinel
WSO (ISR) Mar - mission aircrew on P8
WSO (ISR) Lnd - sensor operator on Reaper
There are also commissioned versions of the above WSOps conducting roles and then there WSO (FJ) that are sadly without a jet anymore.
Thats a lot to remember....perhaps we could rename them something like....
Air Loadmaster
Air Electronics Operator
Air Engineer
Linguist
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Cheers LJ - I didn't even know all those existed - wonder why MSO = "Mission System Officer" not "Mission System Operator" to fit in with the long established WSOp (...operator) vs WSO (...officer) - not likely to ever meet one - just curious.
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Life gets ever more complcated! I’m sure the rot started when Air Officers started acquiring strange civvy-type job tiltles!
Which badge shall I wear today?
ATCO PAR
ATCO ADC
ATCO Dir
ATCO App
ATCO Sup(T)
ATCO LEO(T)
ATCO AC(L)
ATCO AC
ATCO Sup(A)
ATCO LEO(A)
ATCO Instr
ATCO Exam
.... or do I just stop acquiring badges and get on with the job? 😎
Anyway, I’m sure they all do a good and valuable job, for which they deserve thanks. I just think it’s all rather silly!
Which badge shall I wear today?
ATCO PAR
ATCO ADC
ATCO Dir
ATCO App
ATCO Sup(T)
ATCO LEO(T)
ATCO AC(L)
ATCO AC
ATCO Sup(A)
ATCO LEO(A)
ATCO Instr
ATCO Exam
.... or do I just stop acquiring badges and get on with the job? 😎
Anyway, I’m sure they all do a good and valuable job, for which they deserve thanks. I just think it’s all rather silly!
Thats a lot to remember....perhaps we could rename them something like....
Air Loadmaster
Air Electronics Operator
Air Engineer
Linguist
Air Loadmaster
Air Electronics Operator
Air Engineer
Linguist
“For a long time our people have not been ‘tradesmen’ with all of the historical connotations of that word, and nor do we need a separate term for officers from the other ranks. Instead, we want to refer to all of our people through the lexicon of a profession; it’s what they deserve” he states. “Basically this means grouping previous trades and branches together under one profession, adjusting training to allow people to re-skill more quickly and then adjust their terms of service to generate the real fluidity/liquidity in workforce that we need to confront adversaries long into the future”. VSO (Desk) Cpblty A Turner
Last edited by SLXOwft; 9th Oct 2020 at 18:03.
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@SLXOwft
So what went wrong? Looking at that listing provided by LJ there’s the potential of “trades”/“specialities” consisting of a dozen or so people!
My Branch was GD(G)ATC ... now Ops Support, I believe. My ‘specialism’ at any one time was reflected in my ATC Certificate of Competency as my legal authority to do my job. I believe Aircrew have a similar thing (F5000?).
So what went wrong? Looking at that listing provided by LJ there’s the potential of “trades”/“specialities” consisting of a dozen or so people!
My Branch was GD(G)ATC ... now Ops Support, I believe. My ‘specialism’ at any one time was reflected in my ATC Certificate of Competency as my legal authority to do my job. I believe Aircrew have a similar thing (F5000?).
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