USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130
gotta luv tweedle beedle battles.
time to jump in my plane (its a jumbo) and fly away (that'll annoy a few)
Must be a lot of stressed out people with too much time on their hands out there if we are more worried about radio phraseology that figuring out why an F35 rammed a Herc. I just what to know what happened.
time to jump in my plane (its a jumbo) and fly away (that'll annoy a few)
Must be a lot of stressed out people with too much time on their hands out there if we are more worried about radio phraseology that figuring out why an F35 rammed a Herc. I just what to know what happened.
Oh, and just to repeat yet again, the Herc crew achieved a fantastic result to walk away from this. Even if they had been unable to talk to anyone and arrived in the strawberry/carrot/whatever patch unannounced they would still have achieved a fantastic result.
The issue of US military emergency alerts is generic, not specific. It should be a concern to all professional aviators. You know, the ones this site is supposed to be for?.
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Certainly, words matter, and, in an emergent situation, the right words at the right time matter. But that terminology can't exist outside of the institutions that teach and promote their use. I'm sure there are plenty of studies that show that "Not invented here" isn't just arrogant ignorance, but a whole bureaucratic apparatus behind it designed to resist exoteric influence. It's a miracle that we've got the level of international R/T standardization that we have. Sure, in an ideal world, we'd all be using PAN PAN PAN and MAYDAY, LAHSO would be forbidden, and "Cleared to Land" would mean a clear runway too.
So, unlike those theologians, who were using ideal cases to get to real-world solutions to explace how you could be in a place (and how things could fly through the air), here, we've got people using a real-world case to point to how an ideal world should function. The only commonality is that at some point, Ockham comes into the pattern.
Watch out, he's got a razor!
There has been a number of BZ given on this thread so are you organising a celebration as well?
I used to wonder why my Brit friends used to say they were "turning finals".
This never made sense to me as use of the plural implied that the first landing attempt might not work out.
Why the lack of confidence?
This never made sense to me as use of the plural implied that the first landing attempt might not work out.
Why the lack of confidence?
Last edited by twochai; 7th Oct 2020 at 23:47.
Been Sic in two aircraft which called mayday for legitimate, flight threatening reasons (Like a bald eagle through the windshield at 17k) and was PIC in one where I lost an engine At fl 210 and called Pan Pan for inability to maintain altitude over ORD on a crappy day when I couldn’t get a word in edgewise to Chicago Approach.
on all three occasions, the first words out of the controllers mouth were: “Are you declaring an emergency”...
So over here, the phraseology doesn’t seem to mean a lot without some mention of the “E” word...
on all three occasions, the first words out of the controllers mouth were: “Are you declaring an emergency”...
So over here, the phraseology doesn’t seem to mean a lot without some mention of the “E” word...
Thread Starter
Some say "tom'arto others say tomay-to" - two countries separated by a common language...
on all three occasions, the first words out of the controllers mouth were: “Are you declaring an emergency”
Also, whilst training in the simulator in the US (and Canada), 9/10 times I've declared a PAN PAN or a MAYDAY, the sim instructor (playing ATC) has asked, "Are you declaring an emergency?"
So, recently I've always "played the game" and "Declared an emergency" in the sim - funnily enough, on my very last sim session when I did that, the sim instructor said "You really should declare a MAYDAY or PAN PAN"!!!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
"Mayday" doesn't always work in Europe either. In my career I had cause to make a Mayday call on two occasions while descending into Paris. On both occasions the controller spoke to several other aircraft before "XXX, say again?" Then again, it was Paris
Back to the actual accident, forgetting about the RT.
the Herc was damaged in such a way that I don't think what happened would be listed in the QRH or it's military equivalent. The crew really did a great job landing a completely disabled plane and everything seemingly went according to Hoyle
the Herc was damaged in such a way that I don't think what happened would be listed in the QRH or it's military equivalent. The crew really did a great job landing a completely disabled plane and everything seemingly went according to Hoyle
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 8th Oct 2020 at 08:56.
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MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY
I'm a bit concerned that so many apparently professional military aircrew just don't give a damn about internationally accredited procedures (which I guess they must have understood to gain their qualifications). What other procedures are they ignoring because it's more convenient to do so or because that's what everyone does? If US ATC staff don't understand international procedures they aren't being trained in accordance with international standards. The procedures are there for very good reason, they should be ingrained in anyone with a TX switch.
I can only marvel at what it took to get that C130 back on the ground and many say WTF nobody died. Yeah but a Mayday call might have made it easier for everyone else (assuming everyone else understand what a Mayday call means, which it seems isn't a given).
I'm a bit concerned that so many apparently professional military aircrew just don't give a damn about internationally accredited procedures (which I guess they must have understood to gain their qualifications). What other procedures are they ignoring because it's more convenient to do so or because that's what everyone does? If US ATC staff don't understand international procedures they aren't being trained in accordance with international standards. The procedures are there for very good reason, they should be ingrained in anyone with a TX switch.
I can only marvel at what it took to get that C130 back on the ground and many say WTF nobody died. Yeah but a Mayday call might have made it easier for everyone else (assuming everyone else understand what a Mayday call means, which it seems isn't a given).
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Question,
Does an actual Mayday stop ATC bothering you while you are busy dealing with the problem?
It’s just I remember an unrelated incident where a crew dealing with a high workload on finals were interrupted by ATC with some trivia and in attempting to answer the AP was accidentally disconnected and the aircraft drifted off the centreline resulting in a crash.
What I am getting at is does a Mayday pass the onus to the crew to control the comms, ie ATC then become subservient to the crew and in effect a listening out service that reacts to the crews requests and does not interject if that makes sense..
Does an actual Mayday stop ATC bothering you while you are busy dealing with the problem?
It’s just I remember an unrelated incident where a crew dealing with a high workload on finals were interrupted by ATC with some trivia and in attempting to answer the AP was accidentally disconnected and the aircraft drifted off the centreline resulting in a crash.
What I am getting at is does a Mayday pass the onus to the crew to control the comms, ie ATC then become subservient to the crew and in effect a listening out service that reacts to the crews requests and does not interject if that makes sense..
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I suppose because you could have a left or right hand circuit, so there are two.