Changing face and culture of HM Forces
Thread Starter
Changing face and culture of HM Forces
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oke-force.html
Is this really what the heads of the armed forces need to be devoting anytime to?
Its one thing to accept all comers for whom a hat can be found to fit! Its another, and I'd say completely unnecessary approach, to go down the line of trying to find ways of incriminating (how I read what's in the link) young servicemen for not passing a woke theory and practical test.
FB
Is this really what the heads of the armed forces need to be devoting anytime to?
Its one thing to accept all comers for whom a hat can be found to fit! Its another, and I'd say completely unnecessary approach, to go down the line of trying to find ways of incriminating (how I read what's in the link) young servicemen for not passing a woke theory and practical test.
FB
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I'll try to bury my immediate prejudice from an article that appears in the "Daily Hate Monger" but it's difficult when they use the kind of language they know will inflame their already agitated readership. Let's be clear here, "Politically Correct" is just a term we use to either dismiss ideas that make us uncomfortable, or dismiss those people we don't believe have a valid viewpoint, that's why this article is littered with it. It goes on to say:
It must be quite the affront to the Daily Stormfront that we might want to understand differences and understand needs. What an absolute shocker - it's anarchy right there.
I'm old enough to remember my service peers moaning and bitching about the downfall of society when it was first floated that the physical abuse of recruits might not be good thing. They also hated when women became integrated members of military units instead of the "Women's Royal this" or "Woman's Royal that". I remember the joviality in a certain Aldershot Battalion when somebody decided you couldn't actually bar women from undergoing the same physical acceptance tests that had previously only been open to the boys club.
I get it. Change is very scary, development of equality that displaces fiefdoms and empires terrifies those who control the fiefdoms and empires. The service I was in was the last bastion of white male supremacy, we just never wanted to admit it or change it. That's all gone now, and the last hold-outs of discrimination and bigotry are being fully exposed for what they are, despite the efforts of the Daily National Front and the same old has-been Colonel they drag out when they want misogynist and racist view of how change and evolution will destroy the military.
So i guess I'm saying I disagree with you, which probably makes me "Politically Correct" in your world.
Job summaries on recruitment websites describe how successful candidates will be expected to ensure troops and civilian Ministry of Defence employees 'feel authentic in the workplace', that people's differences are 'valued' and that 'everyone's needs are considered'.
I'm old enough to remember my service peers moaning and bitching about the downfall of society when it was first floated that the physical abuse of recruits might not be good thing. They also hated when women became integrated members of military units instead of the "Women's Royal this" or "Woman's Royal that". I remember the joviality in a certain Aldershot Battalion when somebody decided you couldn't actually bar women from undergoing the same physical acceptance tests that had previously only been open to the boys club.
I get it. Change is very scary, development of equality that displaces fiefdoms and empires terrifies those who control the fiefdoms and empires. The service I was in was the last bastion of white male supremacy, we just never wanted to admit it or change it. That's all gone now, and the last hold-outs of discrimination and bigotry are being fully exposed for what they are, despite the efforts of the Daily National Front and the same old has-been Colonel they drag out when they want misogynist and racist view of how change and evolution will destroy the military.
So i guess I'm saying I disagree with you, which probably makes me "Politically Correct" in your world.
Thread Starter
Two's in,
The changes that allow for all comers were accepted over two decades ago. This isn't a sudden pop up threat to the old days, its a Battle that has been won, a long time since. Therefore, what is the point in pursuing the subject by now trying to make having a positively enthusiastic view compulsory? Unless, the Chiefs of Staff are struggling with a constant litany of disruption and disharmony surrounding the matter, which if so, may require another ore subtle approach. Nobody should be giving a flying guff about how someone expresses themselves so long as they aren't being rude or uncharitable. This is a fetish not of the right, but of the progressives, nothing seemingly can be pushed too far, or in this case, pushed endlessly. As for the usual condemnation of the paper carrying the story, they've used the name of Colonel Richard Kemp, if they've made it up or misrepresented the man then they should expect a letter from his Solicitors in the days ahead. This isn't about encouraging all for one and one for all, it is divisive and provocative. We can always expect the likes of ER to try and shut down the Daily Mail or the Telegraph etc, while leaving the Guardian well alone, but I wouldn't trust them to achieve utopia, more likely a nightmare vision of Animal Farm!
FB
The changes that allow for all comers were accepted over two decades ago. This isn't a sudden pop up threat to the old days, its a Battle that has been won, a long time since. Therefore, what is the point in pursuing the subject by now trying to make having a positively enthusiastic view compulsory? Unless, the Chiefs of Staff are struggling with a constant litany of disruption and disharmony surrounding the matter, which if so, may require another ore subtle approach. Nobody should be giving a flying guff about how someone expresses themselves so long as they aren't being rude or uncharitable. This is a fetish not of the right, but of the progressives, nothing seemingly can be pushed too far, or in this case, pushed endlessly. As for the usual condemnation of the paper carrying the story, they've used the name of Colonel Richard Kemp, if they've made it up or misrepresented the man then they should expect a letter from his Solicitors in the days ahead. This isn't about encouraging all for one and one for all, it is divisive and provocative. We can always expect the likes of ER to try and shut down the Daily Mail or the Telegraph etc, while leaving the Guardian well alone, but I wouldn't trust them to achieve utopia, more likely a nightmare vision of Animal Farm!
FB
Job summaries on recruitment websites describe how successful candidates will be expected to ensure troops and civilian Ministry of Defence employees 'feel authentic in the workplace', that people's differences are 'valued' and that 'everyone's needs are considered'.
'Please, sir - I don't feel authentic in my workplace.'
'Authentic? Oh, I'm very sorry to hear that, Airman; let's sort this out, shall we. Have you got your full complement of limbs and other body parts?'
'Yes, sir, I'm all present and correct.'
'Excellent. Does your uniform conform to Dress Regulations and does it fit nicely?'
'Er, yes, sir.'
'Have you been adequately trained for your role in military service?'
'Um, yes,sir, I'm fully qualified.'
'Very good. Have you got all the equipment needed to carry out that role?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Are you gainfully occupied during your working day and are your efforts appreciated?'
'Er... yes, sir, I'm performing a vital function in my squadron.'
'Are there sufficient recreational and sporting facilities on the station to fill your off-duty hours?'
'Yes, sir, there are plenty of opportunities.'
'And do you require anything more than your colleagues are getting?'
'No, sir, we're all in this together.'
'Most commendable. Is there anything else we can do to make you into a more efficient airman?'
'No, sir, the food menu is varied, there are religious services to suit my beliefs, the accommodation and pay is fine and I think I'm very good at my job.'
'Right, then, you horrible little man, you are authentic - get back to work now and don't waste my @&**%#~&$ time again.'
'Please, sir - I don't feel authentic in my workplace.'
'Authentic? Oh, I'm very sorry to hear that, Airman; let's sort this out, shall we. Have you got your full complement of limbs and other body parts?'
'Yes, sir, I'm all present and correct.'
'Excellent. Does your uniform conform to Dress Regulations and does it fit nicely?'
'Er, yes, sir.'
'Have you been adequately trained for your role in military service?'
'Um, yes,sir, I'm fully qualified.'
'Very good. Have you got all the equipment needed to carry out that role?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Are you gainfully occupied during your working day and are your efforts appreciated?'
'Er... yes, sir, I'm performing a vital function in my squadron.'
'Are there sufficient recreational and sporting facilities on the station to fill your off-duty hours?'
'Yes, sir, there are plenty of opportunities.'
'And do you require anything more than your colleagues are getting?'
'No, sir, we're all in this together.'
'Most commendable. Is there anything else we can do to make you into a more efficient airman?'
'No, sir, the food menu is varied, there are religious services to suit my beliefs, the accommodation and pay is fine and I think I'm very good at my job.'
'Right, then, you horrible little man, you are authentic - get back to work now and don't waste my @&**%#~&$ time again.'
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You think it’s a waste of money?
Some of it might be, but we still have work to do. The old days have gone, never to return. The best way to react to this is to accept and embrace, work on making it as sensible as possible. If you fight, you will lose. The young people joining now are different to us, but they still get the job done.”
Some of it might be, but we still have work to do. The old days have gone, never to return. The best way to react to this is to accept and embrace, work on making it as sensible as possible. If you fight, you will lose. The young people joining now are different to us, but they still get the job done.”
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Job summaries on recruitment websites describe how successful candidates will be expected to ensure troops and civilian Ministry of Defence employees 'feel authentic in the workplace', that people's differences are 'valued' and that 'everyone's needs are considered'.
'Please, sir - I don't feel authentic in my workplace.'
'Authentic? Oh, I'm very sorry to hear that, Airman; let's sort this out, shall we. Have you got your full complement of limbs and other body parts?'
'Yes, sir, I'm all present and correct.'
'Excellent. Does your uniform conform to Dress Regulations and does it fit nicely?'
'Er, yes, sir.'
'Have you been adequately trained for your role in military service?'
'Um, yes,sir, I'm fully qualified.'
'Very good. Have you got all the equipment needed to carry out that role?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Are you gainfully occupied during your working day and are your efforts appreciated?'
'Er... yes, sir, I'm performing a vital function in my squadron.'
'Are there sufficient recreational and sporting facilities on the station to fill your off-duty hours?'
'Yes, sir, there are plenty of opportunities.'
'And do you require anything more than your colleagues are getting?'
'No, sir, we're all in this together.'
'Most commendable. Is there anything else we can do to make you into a more efficient airman?'
'No, sir, the food menu is varied, there are religious services to suit my beliefs, the accommodation and pay is fine and I think I'm very good at my job.'
'Right, then, you horrible little man, you are authentic - get back to work now and don't waste my @&**%#~&$ time again.'
'Please, sir - I don't feel authentic in my workplace.'
'Authentic? Oh, I'm very sorry to hear that, Airman; let's sort this out, shall we. Have you got your full complement of limbs and other body parts?'
'Yes, sir, I'm all present and correct.'
'Excellent. Does your uniform conform to Dress Regulations and does it fit nicely?'
'Er, yes, sir.'
'Have you been adequately trained for your role in military service?'
'Um, yes,sir, I'm fully qualified.'
'Very good. Have you got all the equipment needed to carry out that role?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Are you gainfully occupied during your working day and are your efforts appreciated?'
'Er... yes, sir, I'm performing a vital function in my squadron.'
'Are there sufficient recreational and sporting facilities on the station to fill your off-duty hours?'
'Yes, sir, there are plenty of opportunities.'
'And do you require anything more than your colleagues are getting?'
'No, sir, we're all in this together.'
'Most commendable. Is there anything else we can do to make you into a more efficient airman?'
'No, sir, the food menu is varied, there are religious services to suit my beliefs, the accommodation and pay is fine and I think I'm very good at my job.'
'Right, then, you horrible little man, you are authentic - get back to work now and don't waste my @&**%#~&$ time again.'
jayteeto
I would beg to differ - the current joiners are Gen Z (or sometimes called the iGen). They are pretty similar to the Gen X in all but digital competence (or incompetence for the Gen X!) and vastly different to the Gen Y Millenials, or so-called “Wokes”. In fact, in my experience, there is almost as much dislike for “wokism” from Gen Z as there is from Gen X (which is people born between 1965 and 1980). The Gen Zs (1997 to 2012) are our first truly digital generation and you only have to look at their sharp-whitted memes belittling some of today’s crazy “wokism” to understand what makes them tick. As ever, a natural balance is found in these things and, as ever, the senior leadership is out of touch by thinking that the latest generation want a virtue signalling woke world - they don’t!!
I also agree with FB, in that we have now broken down the last barriers in the Armed Forces with all welcome in all roles. Which is a good thing. It is time to stop mentioning it now and just normalise it - everyone is welcome and the very best will rise on merit (and nothing else).
The young people joining now are different to us, but they still get the job done.
I also agree with FB, in that we have now broken down the last barriers in the Armed Forces with all welcome in all roles. Which is a good thing. It is time to stop mentioning it now and just normalise it - everyone is welcome and the very best will rise on merit (and nothing else).
jayteeto
I also agree with FB, in that we have now broken down the last barriers in the Armed Forces with all welcome in all roles. Which is a good thing. It is time to stop mentioning it now and just normalise it - everyone is welcome and the very best will rise on merit (and nothing else).
I also agree with FB, in that we have now broken down the last barriers in the Armed Forces with all welcome in all roles. Which is a good thing. It is time to stop mentioning it now and just normalise it - everyone is welcome and the very best will rise on merit (and nothing else).
Well, that's the Army doing what they do best: focussing on trivial details and missing the big picture. Look at how the RAF and the RN have recapitalised their fleets over the last decade. And what has the Army achieved?
I agree with Two's in. It is the Daily Mail's particular slant on the subject. Let's be honest, the press in recent years has been full of stories of army recruits being humiliated and ill treated by people who neglected their duty of care, and soldiers dying on exercises because basic actions were not undertaken. If this helps in any way to stop such events it is not a bad thing.
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"how junior soldiers face punishment unless they include politically-correct 'mantras' on their annual self-assessment forms.
"Self assessment? does the Army do that sort of thing? No such thing in the RAF of course.
Do they perhaps mean their objectives? not quite the same thing.
"Self assessment? does the Army do that sort of thing? No such thing in the RAF of course.
Do they perhaps mean their objectives? not quite the same thing.
It's a slight thread drift, but remember the case of the Australian Rugby player Israel Folau, who was pilloried for his beliefs about homosexuals. Had he been in the armed forces and stated said beliefs, would his differences be 'valued' or 'considered'?
I think not.
I don't believe that that the armed forces, or anyone else for that matter, is as 'inclusive' as they would like to think. Most of these initiatives are carried out without fully thinking them through and someone is always on the negative end of them.
Which sort of goes against the whole point...
I think not.
I don't believe that that the armed forces, or anyone else for that matter, is as 'inclusive' as they would like to think. Most of these initiatives are carried out without fully thinking them through and someone is always on the negative end of them.
Which sort of goes against the whole point...
No colour, gender or race in a foxhole under fire, surpisingingly it is when people get religion and see the person next to them, scared ****less as much as they are, as a comrade rather than anything else.
The "re education" lesson always have a danger in that the people giving them end up being in charge.
The "re education" lesson always have a danger in that the people giving them end up being in charge.
I have a number of female friends who serve across all three services, and others (male and female) who would fall into the BAME category.
The horror stories that I have heard of how they have been treated, the serious cultural bars they face, the astonishing misogony and sexist behaviour, the casual racism and the general sense that if you are not a straight white male, somehow you don't belong in the same way is deeply upsetting. Whether we like it or not there are very serious issues lying just beneath the surface around military culture that badly need to be addressed - you can complain about this being 'PC gone made' or you can accept that for many members of the forces, being treated in a way that isn't in line with what we loudly proclaim our V&S to be isn't appropriate and needs addressing.
Frankly many of the posts on this thread and elsewhere on this forum merely confirm that these are still live problems.
The horror stories that I have heard of how they have been treated, the serious cultural bars they face, the astonishing misogony and sexist behaviour, the casual racism and the general sense that if you are not a straight white male, somehow you don't belong in the same way is deeply upsetting. Whether we like it or not there are very serious issues lying just beneath the surface around military culture that badly need to be addressed - you can complain about this being 'PC gone made' or you can accept that for many members of the forces, being treated in a way that isn't in line with what we loudly proclaim our V&S to be isn't appropriate and needs addressing.
Frankly many of the posts on this thread and elsewhere on this forum merely confirm that these are still live problems.
Thread Starter
The thing is Jimlad 1, cultures develop a certain way in different groups. Its one thing to open up all options to one and all subject to qualifications and criteria being fully met, but the mind set and culture, the outlook of the services, as for other organizations is shaped by what they are and what they do. I wouldn't want anyone to feel badly about being in the armed force, for example. I recall from my own time in the RAF, there weren't many women who came across as unhappy or feeling out of place. I don't recall from the same era anyone from a BAME background who struggled to fit in either, quite the opposite. I accept what you've heard from others but what the army is attempting to do is dangerous and counter-productive. After all, we're talking about the Armed Forces, not RADA and I say that knowing how hackles are going to rise, the point is, each has traditionally attracted folk from backgrounds which fit a set description, a particular broad but identifiable character, many can crossover, but there are such things as typical types. Were it not so, there would never be any need for initiatives around diversity and inclusivity.
FB
FB
Most studies of Diversity issues show the same pattern - those in charge and the bulk of the organisation can't see a problem - those affected have a long list of stories running from "banter" to actual physical abuse.
We need to LISTEN to them and talk to them - sometimes all that is needed is an explanation of why certain decions were taken, other times you realise things are not as right as they should be
We need to LISTEN to them and talk to them - sometimes all that is needed is an explanation of why certain decions were taken, other times you realise things are not as right as they should be