Beware of 'Pilotaware'

[Hollman]

ETOPS - you're doing more extensive flying than me, and I recognise that you've equipped yourself comprehensively to do it. I'm just exposing my thoughts on which single piece of EC kit I will go for, and since SkyEcho both emits and receives ADS-B, that is the one I choose for my needs. I appreciate everyone has different views on the subject and have been interested to hear them. PAW are clearly making great progress and I hope that somehow an integrated EC solution can be achieved.

[Mahogany Fighter]

Originally Posted by Hollman

ETOPS - you're doing more extensive flying than me, and I recognise that you've equipped yourself comprehensively to do it. I'm just exposing my thoughts on which single piece of EC kit I will go for, and since SkyEcho both emits and receives ADS-B, that is the one I choose for my needs. I appreciate everyone has different views on the subject and have been interested to hear them. PAW are clearly making great progress and I hope that somehow an integrated EC solution can be achieved.

Normally lurk and rarely post but just wanted to say that SkyEcho is a fine piece of kit which I use to receive ADS-B and FLARM directly and display warnings in SkyDemon. I no longer need the transmit capability because like so many rotary people now, I am transmitting ADS-B from my transponder. My experiences with Pilot unAware were shocking. I was hooked in by a snake oil salesmen at a show who claimed it could receive everything and be seen by everyone else. Turns out you can only receive FLARM if it is received and rebroadcast by a bunch of spotters on the ground and never ever worked were I operate. Nobody can detect you using It because it uses some low power transmission outside of the aviation band. The build quality was rubbish and it got far too hot in the cockpit for my liking. The snake oil salesmen told me it was cheap. Well not that cheap when you throw it in the bin after 6 months of frustration.

[neilmurg]

Originally Posted by chevvron

Discussion on another forum which is not allowed to be mentioned on here regarding an 'automaatic' weather report feed to aircraft which uses a 'colour state' system.
The colour states reported are totally unlike the system used here, it being an American system giving vis. in statute miles and using only 4 'colour states' starting with 'green' as the best weather and having no 'white' or 'yellow 1/2'..
You can view the colour states used at www.aviationweather.gov//metar/help?page=plot
I've pointed out this is a potential flight safety hazard' I don't even know if the system has been approved by the CAA.

That's disappointing Che>>ron.
It's a safety device, even if you don't like it, IT IS an adjunct to see and avoid, and providing free in-flight weather when there's no FIS-B and TIS-B in Europe.
OK, you don't like the colour scheme, but your hobby shouldn't be so destructive/dismissive of positive developments for safety in GA.
peace, move on and grow.
I've not been here for a few years, a la Kennedy Steve: 'C'YA'

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by neilmurg

That's disappointing Che>>ron.
It's a safety device, even if you don't like it, IT IS an adjunct to see and avoid, and providing free in-flight weather when there's no FIS-B and TIS-B in Europe.
OK, you don't like the colour scheme, but your hobby shouldn't be so destructive/dismissive of positive developments for safety in GA.
peace, move on and grow.
I've not been here for a few years, a la Kennedy Steve: 'C'YA'

I was referring only to the introduction of a different airfield colour state system compared to the one which already exists in the UK; the other features of Pilotaware are of no concern to me personally, however what should be of some concern is the amount of information fed to the pilot via Pilotaware; some pilots might concentrate on this and forget to look out of the window and thus not see an aircraft approaching which is not emitting any type of ellectronic conspicuity.

[CAPS_pin_removed]

Why?

Originally Posted by chevvron

I was referring only to the introduction of a different airfield colour state system compared to the one which already exists in the UK; the other features of Pilotaware are of no concern to me personally, however what should be of some concern is the amount of information fed to the pilot via Pilotaware; some pilots might concentrate on this and forget to look out of the window and thus not see an aircraft approaching which is not emitting any type of ellectronic conspicuity.

Hi Chevvron, I am mystified by this apparently unwarranted attack on Pilot Aware. You actually go so far as to say "... the amount of information fed to the pilot via Pilotaware ..." is a concern to you. Would you prefer pilots be kept in the dark? A pilot looking out the window may not see a contact but with Pilot Aware there is a chance they will get an audible traffic warning whilst continuing to look out the window. Just as they might in a G1000 equipped aircraft with TCAS. Not many GA aircraft in the UK have such a fit. If you are lucky enough to have say G1000 with TCAS and you get an audible warning, but still struggle to identify the target for any one of myriad reasons, you have an option to glance at the screen to get better situational awareness of the threat and the threat vector. Coming from the world of Avidyne and G1000 I was astonished to discover that for an almost trivial amount of money I could buy a box of tricks from a small UK company and link it to, in my case, another utterly amazing product called SkyDemon and get a bloody good facsimile of what I had in aircraft costing millions. I would ask you to reconsider and update this thread appropriately. You are doing a disservice to a fledgling British company that is punching well above its weight. You are also doing a disservice to any pilot rightly anxious about one of the most serious threats to aviation safety after CFIT, who might be considering how to mitigate the risk.

Some of the other posts on this thread come across as what I take to be trolling, if I understand that term correctly. Objecting to Pilot Aware being a young company in the same way that Microsoft was a young company when Bill Gates was tinkering in his garage with components from Radio Shack or RS or a US Maplins is not a reasoned assessment of anything.

Kind regards, J

[The B Word]

CAPS_pin_removed and neilmurg - can you flourish us with your credentials to post here on a forum that is:

A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

[Easy Street]

Objecting to Pilot Aware being a young company in the same way that Microsoft was a young company when Bill Gates was tinkering in his garage with components from Radio Shack or RS or a US Maplins is not a reasoned assessment of anything.

This is not a reasoned argument unless you can point us to an example of early Microsoft products being marketed for deployment in environments where safety certification applies.

[CAPS_pin_removed]

Originally Posted by The B Word

CAPS_pin_removed and neilmurg - can you flourish us with your credentials to post here on a forum that is:

You need to direct that comment to the person who made the original post.

[CAPS_pin_removed]

Originally Posted by Easy Street

This is not a reasoned argument unless you can point us to an example of early Microsoft products being marketed for deployment in environments where safety certification applies.

Difficult to know where you're going there Easy Street. But I'll let you continue in whichever direction it is uninterrupted.

Personally I am not familiar with the 'safety certification' process for Pilot Away, Sky Echo etc.

[The B Word]

Originally Posted by CAPS_pin_removed

You need to direct that comment to the person who made the original post.

I believe the OP is an ex-Service Air Trafficker and also Air Cadet Gliding Instructor as a reservist in later years?? Both yours and Neil Murg’s posts stand out as folks that have been on Pprune for some time but don’t seem to have posted here before. So it looks kind of odd that you chip in on a military discussion forum in defence of a piece of cheap kit that many mil operators have seen and don’t like due to it not transmitting a signal that any of them are ever likely to detect. Now ADS-B Out is a different matter and many types will detect that via various means. As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!

[CAPS_pin_removed]

Originally Posted by The B Word

I believe the OP is an ex-Service Air Trafficker and also Air Cadet Gliding Instructor as a reservist in later years?? Both yours and Neil Murg’s posts stand out as folks that have been on Pprune for some time but don’t seem to have posted here before. So it looks kind of odd that you chip in on a military discussion forum in defence of a piece of cheap kit that many mil operators have seen and don’t like due to it not transmitting a signal that any of them are ever likely to detect. Now ADS-B Out is a different matter and many types will detect that via various means. As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!

Apologies if I made a faux pas posting here. I arrived on this thread having clicked on a link in a forum I came across while researching Pilot Aware. I have one and now want to make it a permanent install in the Jodel I fly. I didn't notice any filters making me aware that this is exclusively a military forum and Pilot Aware is a GA product. I have great respect for the forces and didn't intend to barge into the officers mess uninvited! I used to attend Military Civil Aviation Safety events (they had a name like MCASD or something). They were excellent events, great fun, and fostered a better understanding of the challenges civil and military pilots face in shared airspace. It rather sounds as though you do not subscribe to that sort of fraternisation.

It isn't clear to me what the objection to Pilot Aware (PA) really is. The OP complains about metar colours. I thought PA provided a feed and the display device and software managed the rendering, eg SkyDemon on an iPad or whatever. Either way I will go back to PA and ask them if they can influence this and suggest conforming to the standard you recommend. I hope to avail of this feature in due course. I presume however that military pilots will not actually be relying on Pilot Aware for metars in flight so I wonder why the OP chose to comment here. If, as you say, the OP is involved in gliding then that person should be the first to embrace with enthusiasm Pilot Aware and anything like it rather than attack it on any forum. Pilot Aware is Flarm capable and invaluable anywhere gliders may be encountered.

You dismiss Pilot Aware as 'cheap'. With the greatest respect I can't help thinking that calling Pilot Aware cheap is a luxury you can afford because the tax payer funds your flying. For the rest of us cheap translates as affordable. If Pilot Aware is objectionable by virtue of being affordable then I think it stands guilty as accused.

Finally, I hear what you say about ADS-B. No argument, would be great if it had it. I believe it detects ADS-B so if you are transmitting as you scream down the valley low level in your typhoon (yep, I'm jealous as hell) then at least the situation is better than no Pilot Aware or similar in use. Surely you would prefer it that way?

Blue skies and tail winds to all. J

[CAPS_pin_removed]

Originally Posted by The B Word

.... As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!

Please see above from ETOPS: "Just to correct a bad piece of fake news from the OP, the forthcoming met uploads from Pilotaware are standard Metars with visibility in nautical miles as is usual in the UK.
The colour coding proposed has absolutely nothing to do with military operations - many light aircraft pilots will have no knowledge of RAF procedures anyway."

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by CAPS_pin_removed

Please see above from ETOPS: "Just to correct a bad piece of fake news from the OP, the forthcoming met uploads from Pilotaware are standard Metars with visibility in nautical miles as is usual in the UK.
The colour coding proposed has absolutely nothing to do with military operations - many light aircraft pilots will have no knowledge of RAF procedures anyway."

METARS in the UK have to my knowledge used metres and kilometres for met visibility for over 50 years; this system being US based uses statute miles not nautical miles.

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by The B Word

I believe the OP is an ex-Service Air Trafficker and also Air Cadet Gliding Instructor as a reservist in later years?? Both yours and Neil Murg’s posts stand out as folks that have been on Pprune for some time but don’t seem to have posted here before. So it looks kind of odd that you chip in on a military discussion forum in defence of a piece of cheap kit that many mil operators have seen and don’t like due to it not transmitting a signal that any of them are ever likely to detect. Now ADS-B Out is a different matter and many types will detect that via various means. As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!

Not quite right. After my NATCS ATCO Cadet course from 1971 to 1974 during which I worked for a while at a JATCRU, I was posted direct to RAE Farnborough where, being a MOD(PE) airfield, I quickly learnt military ATC procedures (including PAR) and used them for 26 odd years until our last military commitment (radar approach control and radar director for RAF Odiham) ceased in early 2000.
I was an Air Cadet glider pilot providing air experience flights to hundreds of cadets, declining the chance to become an instructor due to work commitments but after being commisioned in the RAFVR(T) (1979 to 1998) I also became a Wing Gliding Liaison Officer.
When I learnt that 'Pilot Aware' were providing a 'colour state' system which was radically different to the established military system in the UK, I decided (as ATCOs do) that in the interests of flight safety, I would alert military aircrew to this via a military forum .
The 2 persons who seem to object took this as if I were saying the whole of Pilot Aware systems were rubbish however I have made it perfectly clear at #24 that this is not so.

[Airways B]

Absolutely brilliant news to see that the "Used Car Salesman" has been awarded an OBE in recognition to his contribution to Aviation Safety ..Well done Keith!!

https://www.flyer.co.uk/obe-for-pilo...keith-vinning/

With the ATOM grid network now in place and growing there'll be a lot more to come from the Pilotaware team aside from this extremely useful METAR feature!

[Corporal Clott]

Originally Posted by Airways B

Absolutely brilliant news to see that the "Used Car Salesman" has been awarded an OBE in recognition to his contribution to Aviation Safety ..Well done Keith!!

https://www.flyer.co.uk/obe-for-pilo...keith-vinning/

With the ATOM grid network now in place and growing there'll be a lot more to come from the Pilotaware team aside from this extremely useful METAR feature!

Not the only used car salesman to get an OBE - although this one did some amazing charity work on top to get his: https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...led-obe/132371

Kind of odd to get a gong for selling your wares, though, isn’t it? Is it because he is one of Shapps’ stooges?

[BossEyed]

Corporal Clott - what a thoroughly unpleasant thing to say.

The Pilotaware system quite clearly has significant flight safety benefits, and the award is well-deserved.

[The B Word]

The Pilotaware system quite clearly has significant flight safety benefits, and the award is well-deserved.

Not really, the pilot aware is a fairly good safety feature If you happen to be in range of one of their ground stations, otherwise it is just like any other Raspberry Pi based ADS-B receiver using a software defined radio (hardly world breaking). But the thing that is arguably unsafe is pilot aware’s insistence to bring in things like these non-standard weather colour codes or introducing another proprietary signal standard. They have persisted with this signal standard, even though no other devices receive it, and also even though the CAA have said that ADS-B transmission is the same standard. The CAA have even introduced a low-power version of ADS-B under civil air publication 1391 but pilot aware insist on continuing to press with their own proprietary standard, even though no one else sees it. I hear they have even tried peddling it to the UAV and MOD under some new smaller version called Graffiti - which agains dilutes the market when the transmission standards should be united. So I personally don’t agree that this is a significant safety benefit.

As for business leaders getting gongs. Have a read of https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/in-busi...warded-an-obe/ to see what the normal standards are.

I would agree with Clott here, in that there is normally a significant charity effort, or an effort to increase social mobility through job creation, to qualify. I also hear that the inventor of sky demon got a gong too, I would also offer that such companies don’t really create lots of socially mobile jobs and I’m not hearing about charitable effort, then one wonders what these gongs were actually for? Building a Raspberry Pi ADS-B receiver or some electronic flight bag software is hardly a world-leading and inspiring effort, is it? There are literally dozens of similar products available. So the common link, as Clott points out, is that clown Shapps (the chap that tried to deceive the world by changing his name to Michael Green - https://www.theguardian.com/politics...keter-while-mp) who can only be the driving force behind this as minister for transport? With so many others giving their time for free to the world of general aviation safety (like the people that deliver the safety evenings on behalf of the CAA for travel expenses in their free time, or those in the Light Aircraft, Gliding and Microlight Assocs that give masses of their time for free for the benefit if others’ safety) then the sudden appearance of such awards looks highly suspicious. I also heard that Shapps, as a GA pilot, uses at least one of these products.

My personal view has always been that these gongs should be awarded for significant effort outside their normal place of work. Like the footballer Rashford’s holding of the Government to account for feeding children struggling to be fed. That is inspirational. Bringing out another ADS-B receiver or electronic flight bag is not, in my opinion.

[Airways B]

I think you'll find that Pilotaware operates on a 'not for profit' basis . All monies raised from the sales of units is ploughed back into improvements and providing the hardware to build the ATOM Grid network to do their bit for improving light aviation safety.

Deserved of an honorable award IMO

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by The B Word

CAPS_pin_removed and neilmurg - can you flourish us with your credentials to post here on a forum that is:

I think you are doing yourself and the forum a disservice here. Yes it is in military forum but then again you do get overlap in both the military and civil world, and what was actually brought up is a piece of civilian equipment in a military forum, so you would’ve expected reasonably that civilians using this equipment or planning to use this equipment would be interested in and wishing to comment in the debate. After all, they are probably the ones with the experience in using it, and can bring a different complexion to the discussion.

This is a two way street, you will also find questions in the civil forums where military issues might come up and you would probably comment on those as he has here.

You’ve got to have a bit of leeway and give-and-take when dealing with subjects like this, after all the main purpose of it is FlightSafety and I think everyone would agree that has to be objective, both civil and military.