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SEP PPL any good for RAF career..?

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SEP PPL any good for RAF career..?

Old 31st Jul 2020, 12:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Darkmouse View Post
I've signed up to PPRuNe purely to counter some of the views above.

Ex-fast-jets above has hit the nail on the head. It's not a bad a start at all, provided that you are prepared to turn up to EFT ready to park your prior knowledge and learn to fly the way your QFI's want you to fly, not the way you think it should be done. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

What makes me say this? I was one of two guys on my IOT intake to already have a PPL. Neither he nor I struggled to make the change to military flying, but we both took the view that we were starting from scratch. He was on a different EFT course to me, so I don't know exactly how he got on, but he is now a very accomplished SH pilot.

I won't give too much of my own subsequent career away, as I suspect I am very easy to identify, but with something in the region of 65 hours under my belt before starting EFT, I was able to skip or combine quite a few of the earlier EFT exercise, such as combining EoC's 1+2, C+D 1+2 etc, and finished EFT with a considerable chunk of negative FE (hours I didn't have to fly). I think I had a considerable advantage over my peers for at least the first half of EFT. That advantage had all but disappeared by basic flying training when things get trickier, but it was certainly useful.

I wouldn't listen to the nay sayers above, flying is great fun, and a PPL is a gentle and enjoyable introduction to it. Turn up to EFT ready to start from scratch, with no ego and a desire to learn and you'll be good to go 👍.
None of that is wrong, but the point is that the answer to both of OP's questions is no.

You didn't get selected because you had a PPL. You got selected and had a PPL. That's different.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 14:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Darkmouse View Post
. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.
not unlike how being an ex-cadet is a great help in showing commitment, as long as you shut up about it during training and expect to be taught all over again.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 15:34
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tmmorris View Post
not unlike how being an ex-cadet is a great help in showing commitment, as long as you shut up about it during training and expect to be taught all over again.
Had a wonderful example of "prior experience" slightly backfiring when I did my AIB (Admiralty Interview Board) when getting my Commission from the Ranks. The older Special Duties guys and gals I don't think did a full AIB (IIR) but, if you conned 'em early in your career as I managed to, you had to do the usual AIB along with all the Civvie hopefuls and take your chance. For the Practical Leadership element, all us Matelots were in one team with about 4 or 5 other teams made up of the Civvies. Note, this was back when we actually had a Navy and so had to recruit quite a few people for each Dartmouth Entry.

As most of us Matelots knew each other, and so had been doing some serious drinking the night before as a "Team Bonding Exercise", we were a bit shabby that morning. However, this simply aided our guile and ingenuity and, while the Civvie groups were falling off planks, dropping barrels into "bottomless" chasms and being eaten by hungry crocodiles and such like, we finished every single exercise and completed them well ahead of time whereas the Civvie groups generally failed miserably (not an issue as the Staff were looking for Leadership potential I guess).

After it was all over, we all got taken to one side and were severely reprimanded by a very grumpy set of AIB Staff for making it look too easy and, especially, for showing the Civvies up!!!!!! They even accused us of not taking it seriously which, erm, I guess we weren't really! Ooops!
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 15:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High View Post
Had a wonderful example of "prior experience" slightly backfiring when I did my AIB (Admiralty Interview Board) when getting my Commission from the Ranks. The older Special Duties guys and gals I don't think did a full AIB (IIR) but, if you conned 'em early in your career as I managed to, you had to do the usual AIB along with all the Civvie hopefuls and take your chance. For the Practical Leadership element, all us Matelots were in one team with about 4 or 5 other teams made up of the Civvies. Note, this was back when we actually had a Navy and so had to recruit quite a few people for each Dartmouth Entry.

As most of us Matelots knew each other, and so had been doing some serious drinking the night before as a "Team Bonding Exercise", we were a bit shabby that morning. However, this simply aided our guile and ingenuity and, while the Civvie groups were falling off planks, dropping barrels into "bottomless" chasms and being eaten by hungry crocodiles and such like, we finished every single exercise and completed them well ahead of time whereas the Civvie groups generally failed miserably (not an issue as the Staff were looking for Leadership potential I guess).

After it was all over, we all got taken to one side and were severely reprimanded by a very grumpy set of AIB Staff for making it look too easy and, especially, for showing the Civvies up!!!!!! They even accused us of not taking it seriously which, erm, I guess we weren't really! Ooops!
Wow Iím glad I pulled up my sandbag to read that one.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 15:45
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brakes to Park View Post
Wow Iím glad I pulled up my sandbag to read that one.
Sorry for the slight thread-creep!!!!
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 16:24
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Darkmouse View Post
I've signed up to PPRuNe purely to counter some of the views above.

Ex-fast-jets above has hit the nail on the head. It's not a bad a start at all, provided that you are prepared to turn up to EFT ready to park your prior knowledge and learn to fly the way your QFI's want you to fly, not the way you think it should be done. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

What makes me say this? I was one of two guys on my IOT intake to already have a PPL. Neither he nor I struggled to make the change to military flying, but we both took the view that we were starting from scratch. He was on a different EFT course to me, so I don't know exactly how he got on, but he is now a very accomplished SH pilot.

I won't give too much of my own subsequent career away, as I suspect I am very easy to identify, but with something in the region of 65 hours under my belt before starting EFT, I was able to skip or combine quite a few of the earlier EFT exercise, such as combining EoC's 1+2, C+D 1+2 etc, and finished EFT with a considerable chunk of negative FE (hours I didn't have to fly). I think I had a considerable advantage over my peers for at least the first half of EFT. That advantage had all but disappeared by basic flying training when things get trickier, but it was certainly useful.

I wouldn't listen to the nay sayers above, flying is great fun, and a PPL is a gentle and enjoyable introduction to it. Turn up to EFT ready to start from scratch, with no ego and a desire to learn and you'll be good to go 👍.
This!

As a current QFI, this is spot on.
just another jocky is offline  
Old 31st Jul 2020, 18:30
  #27 (permalink)  
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Thanks for all the diverse replies I have had so far... Not too sure what an EFT is though.
In our Cessna owners group, we have had three pilots who needed the PPL plus more hours to attempt to
start a Commercial Airline Career.. Quite how their efforts are working out post Covid-19, I have not yet found out.
All I wanted to know was if the PPL is studied in the RAF, for such things as Air Law. Navigation, Metrology etc.
.

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Old 31st Jul 2020, 18:55
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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EFT = Elementary Flying Training, the first 'hurdle'. I’ll get shot down for this but it’s similar to PPL plus different navigation techniques, formation and aerobatics. And to a higher standard/stricter tolerance (maybe in some ways closer to CPL therefore).

Stuff you learn for the exams won’t be wrong, but be prepared to study it all over again in more depth for more exams. You won’t get any credit.

The other way round, though, if you qualify as an RAF pilot then conversion to a PPL or CPL is pretty straightforward, and there are RAF Flying Clubs to help you achieve that.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 19:54
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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When I joined a long time ago I had a PPL with about seventy hours including some rudimentary aerobatics. Most of my contemporaries at Linton had been in the UAS and were streets ahead because of the training they had received and they were far more comfortable in the service environment than I was in that first couple of years. All that being said, one lad on my course with zero flying experience upon entry went on to fly Jaguar and Tornado. I seem to remember the old adage PAD for preparation, application and dedication - hack that and a PPL is unnecessary !
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 21:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, what are the 'bad habits' that PPLs have?
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 22:04
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Where do I start?
First, you don’t do formation any more and EFT is nowhere near a CPL these days.
Bad habits include flying on instruments. Poor lookout techniques. R/T of varying standards.
GOOD habits/points. Ground school often much better, tech knowledge, less prone to airsickness, preparation (when you pay for flying you prepare more).
This is generalisation. We have a way to do things, adapt to our way and life is good. Fight it and do your own thing, you are going to struggle. The system is designed to take you from zero to hero, go with the flow
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 08:08
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Is a PPL any help towards an RAF career? Well, I would say "That depends...."

Some 50+ years ago, like many hundreds of others, I had an RAF Scholarship. As well as a place at RAFC, this included a Special Flying Award of 30 hours of PPL training (generous parents paid for the other 5 and I had my PPL before I held a driving licence).

However, training was ONLY conducted at schools which had been approved by CFS, so the training was to a known standard. It was an excellent course on which I flew 15 hrs solo. The aircraft were brand new Cessna 150s from Reims and the course included an unseen qualifying cross-country solo trip with 2 intermediate landings at aerodromes I'd never previously visited.

The next time I flew a solo cross-country landaway wasn't until 8 years later when I took a Hunter from Brawdy to Leuchars and the next time I flew an aircraft as new as our Cessnas wasn't until 1980 when Dunsfold was building new Hawks for Chivenor.

When I was at Wellesbourne Mountford once, an RAF Tutor landed, shortly followed by another. Upon investigation, this was someone on an EFT course doing a PPL Qualifying Cross-Country, but the RAF's idea of a solo Q X-C involved the student being shadowed by a QFI in another aircraft....

These days there's precious little solo at EFT; it was bad enough at the Brize Flying Club when we were seeing TriStar co-pilots who'd flown a complete tour having to top up their PIC time to qualify for CPL application by hours in our PA28s.

The main advantage of a PPL is that pilots will have gained a lot of solo consolidation. We taught 'point and power' and 'standard closing angle' at the Flying Club, so hopefully anyone who went on to join the RAF after time with us will have found military techniques second nature.

So in answer to the question, it really depends on the quality of PPL training. But solo consolidation is an undeniable benefit, in my opinion.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 08:21
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scifi View Post
... Not too sure what an EFT is though.
That is something you would need to cure in order to get over the first hurdle......selection. You need to have a decent working knowledge of the RAF and the training system in order to be selected to be an officer and trainee pilot, but having a PPL will show some dedication which will be a positive.

A PPL can help, without doubt, especially in the early days to around solo consolidation but after that, as you progress through the advanced GH phase and onto the applied phases (IF, Nav etc) it loses its benefit and those who are more natural pilots will shine through. It can definitely help you get through the early trips, but as has been alluded to, depending on how you have been taught in your PPL you may have to unlearn some things and shed certain behaviour patterns which may prove harder than you think.

Personally I prefer to work with a blank canvas, by that I mean a student who has not been taught to fly before but that's just my opinion.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 09:59
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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My experience is gliding is much more useful than powered/PPL as a first step.
Much more head out of the cockpit required where flying the aeroplane is only a (small) part of the task at hand.

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Old 1st Aug 2020, 11:31
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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My experience is gliding is much more useful than powered/PPL as a first step.
Much more head out of the cockpit required where flying the aeroplane is only a (small) part of the task at hand.
As a QFI, if you had a student with gliding experience, you had struck gold. Good stick and rudder skills, could fly attitudes without an AI, head always out of the cockpit - and teaching PFLs was a doddle!
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 14:22
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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During my UAS time, we had bods on flying scholarships and cadetships. It made one feel a little disadvantaged. However the QFIs assured me that those who came with no flying experience, soon caught up with the people who had already got flying experience. From my own observations, those who didn't have any previous flying experience did rather well in their subsequent service careers. I daresay at EFT, there were those who had no flying experience also and would have been disheartened at the X UAS bods who had over 100+ hours under their belts.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 17:01
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Prior flying experience Vs non is certainly taken into account when deciding upon how EFT students have performed. You would expect an ex-UAS member to be excellent, or someone with significant other prior experience, and their performance and future potential would be gauged accordingly.

Of the three streamed FJ from my EFT, 1 had UAS experience, one had zero experience, and then there was me - I'm certain the chap with zero prior experience was picked before me, and rightly so.

Basically none of the above routes either advantage or disadvantage you when it comes to a streaming board. My personal view is that having flown before was an advantage to me and me alone - at the streaming board though, I would probably have been compared to people with zero experience who performed to the same standard and they would have been rightly picked before me.

If someone is in a position to learn to fly before they attempt to join the RAF, why shouldn't they? I've wanted to fly since I was a very small boy and I was lucky enough that I could do that before I joined the RAF, although joining the RAF was always the goal.

What I'm trying to say is that flying is great in whatever form you do it, whether it's off your own back, or starting form scratch in the military - either way, if you make it to an EFT course, you will be judged on your ability and potential fairly at that stage, taking your prior experience, or lack of, into account. The rest is irrelevant.
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Old 2nd Aug 2020, 07:14
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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What is the EFT course breakdown today?
I've heard it's quite low hours...
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 09:02
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Way back in 1972 my scholarship PPL may well have helped me scrape through Biggin Hill as it no doubt showed that I had a keen interest in a career as a pilot and had some basic pilot aptitude. Having got through IOT at Henlow the RAF then decided to save money by waiving my Chipmunk flying at Church Fenton and 'up-coursed' me straight onto the JP at Linton! That was a very steep learning curve and my flying club habits did me no favours. 37 years later I was still flying for the RAF when I retired not having killed myself or anyone else so all's well that ends well. ;-)
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 17:10
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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37 years later I was still flying for the RAF when I retired not having killed myself or anyone else so all's well that ends well. ;-)
Frightened a few though!
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