Lt(jg) Maddy Swegle USN
Back off, sport. Now. Stand the f*** down.
You are crapping on someone who did that hard thing: try to drink through a fire hose. I am painfully familiar with the accountant/bean counter initiative to reduce the T-45 syllabus "length" by "ten percent" due to it being "so costly" to train fast jet pilots.
Her predecessors in Fast Jet Land got to fly T-2 and A-4 (CQing in both) before the bean counting scum tried to make it all more "cost effective" - and the original T-45 syllabus did that due to good use of better sims and syllabus design that applied about 60 years of lessons learned in pilot training.
And then the accountants got involved. They took what "was" in the expensively designed T-45 syllabus and claimed that a 10% (actually, more than 10%) reduction in syllabus length was somehow justified. (morons, and not a one an aviator). Not on aviation grounds, but on fiscal grounds.
You gotta a lotta damn nerve to throw any shade on her or any of her contemporaries.
F*** off.
And stay f**'ed.
You are crapping on someone who did that hard thing: try to drink through a fire hose. I am painfully familiar with the accountant/bean counter initiative to reduce the T-45 syllabus "length" by "ten percent" due to it being "so costly" to train fast jet pilots.
Her predecessors in Fast Jet Land got to fly T-2 and A-4 (CQing in both) before the bean counting scum tried to make it all more "cost effective" - and the original T-45 syllabus did that due to good use of better sims and syllabus design that applied about 60 years of lessons learned in pilot training.
And then the accountants got involved. They took what "was" in the expensively designed T-45 syllabus and claimed that a 10% (actually, more than 10%) reduction in syllabus length was somehow justified. (morons, and not a one an aviator). Not on aviation grounds, but on fiscal grounds.
You gotta a lotta damn nerve to throw any shade on her or any of her contemporaries.
F*** off.
And stay f**'ed.
Read it again Fred. “Someone” is the giveaway. I did not say Lt(jg) Maddy Swegle USN is only there because she is female.
No specific shade on her but certainly on contemporaries. In our world where due to lack of representation of the population based on gender, race and religion, standards have changed to allow more percentage based representation. I did not specify that this person got where she was without ability. I did state that this is the case in a lot of areas and that this dilutes her achievements when people continually see people given/placed in position not based on their ability but based on positive discrimination. Indefensible? Really what world do you live in if you do not believe that positive discrimination is at work. I have no problem with the situation where there are applicants that are similar in qual’s with the position being given based on this. I do have a gripe with positions being given to people, based on positive discrimination, when there are significantly better applicants that are passed over to meet the Politicians demands. The end result of this is we have people failing, which is good for no-one, not the company (read military) nor the individual. Or people being passed based on rearranged standards. If you do not think this happens, well being blind to reality is to be pitied.
As for Lt Hultgreen, vilification is totally unjustified. This is where professionalism is supposed to come in by identifying the chain of events that contributed or lead to the accident.
Last edited by finestkind; 4th Aug 2020 at 03:45.
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A time line not checked for accuracy -
Wesley Anthony Brown (April 3, 1927 – May 22, 2012) was the first African-American graduate of the United States Naval Academy (USNA) in Annapolis, Maryland. He served in the United States Navy from May 2, 1944, until June 30, 1969. He was involved in both the Korean and Vietnam wars.
1944 - The commissioning of the Navy’s first two African-American female officers. WAVES—Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service, or, essentially, the women’s reserve branch of the Navy—selected the two most capable African-American recruits: Harriet Ida Pickens and Frances Eliza Wills, two highly accomplished women of New York City
Jesse LeRoy Brown (October 13, 1926–December 4, 1950) was a United States Navy officer. He was the first African-American aviator to complete the U.S. Navy's basic flight training program, was a recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross, and the first African-American naval officer killed in the Korean War.
In Annapolis, Maryland, the United States Naval Academy admits women for the first time in its history with the induction of 81 female midshipmen. In May 1980, Elizabeth Anne Rowe became the first woman member of the class to graduate.
Barbara Ann Allen Rainey (August 20, 1948 – July 13, 1982) was one of the first six female pilots in the U.S. armed forces. Rainey received her wings of gold as the first female to be designated a naval aviator in February 1974 and became the first Navy woman to qualify as a jet pilot. She attained the rank of Lieutenant Commander in the United States Navy
1980 - Brenda E. Robinson, the first Black female naval aviator, who earned her Wings of Gold in 1980.
Kara Spears Hultgreen (5 October 1965 – 25 October 1994) was a lieutenant and naval aviator in the United States Navy and the first female carrier-based fighter pilot in the U.S. Navy.
2020 - Lt. j.g. Madeline "Maddy" Swegle - The U.S. Navy's first Black female Tactical Aircraft pilot will receive her "Wings of Gold" during a ceremony in Kingsville, Texas..
Wesley Anthony Brown (April 3, 1927 – May 22, 2012) was the first African-American graduate of the United States Naval Academy (USNA) in Annapolis, Maryland. He served in the United States Navy from May 2, 1944, until June 30, 1969. He was involved in both the Korean and Vietnam wars.
1944 - The commissioning of the Navy’s first two African-American female officers. WAVES—Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service, or, essentially, the women’s reserve branch of the Navy—selected the two most capable African-American recruits: Harriet Ida Pickens and Frances Eliza Wills, two highly accomplished women of New York City
Jesse LeRoy Brown (October 13, 1926–December 4, 1950) was a United States Navy officer. He was the first African-American aviator to complete the U.S. Navy's basic flight training program, was a recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross, and the first African-American naval officer killed in the Korean War.
In Annapolis, Maryland, the United States Naval Academy admits women for the first time in its history with the induction of 81 female midshipmen. In May 1980, Elizabeth Anne Rowe became the first woman member of the class to graduate.
Barbara Ann Allen Rainey (August 20, 1948 – July 13, 1982) was one of the first six female pilots in the U.S. armed forces. Rainey received her wings of gold as the first female to be designated a naval aviator in February 1974 and became the first Navy woman to qualify as a jet pilot. She attained the rank of Lieutenant Commander in the United States Navy
1980 - Brenda E. Robinson, the first Black female naval aviator, who earned her Wings of Gold in 1980.
Kara Spears Hultgreen (5 October 1965 – 25 October 1994) was a lieutenant and naval aviator in the United States Navy and the first female carrier-based fighter pilot in the U.S. Navy.
2020 - Lt. j.g. Madeline "Maddy" Swegle - The U.S. Navy's first Black female Tactical Aircraft pilot will receive her "Wings of Gold" during a ceremony in Kingsville, Texas..
Last edited by Islandlad; 4th Aug 2020 at 03:18.
But you have no basis for it.
I am all too familiar with the press for affirmative action in flight training and the demands put on the instructors and the training system to support that directive. You still attrite those who can't fly well enough. (Well, we did).
Make sure you lube up that cyclic thoroughly before you take a seat on it. It will save your 'rhoids from undue agitation.
A time line not checked for accuracy -
In Annapolis, Maryland, the United States Naval Academy admits women for the first time in its history with the induction of 81 female midshipmen. In May 1980, Elizabeth Anne Rowe became the first woman member of the class to graduate.
In Annapolis, Maryland, the United States Naval Academy admits women for the first time in its history with the induction of 81 female midshipmen. In May 1980, Elizabeth Anne Rowe became the first woman member of the class to graduate.
81 females were sworn in on July 6, 1976. 55 Graduated on 28 May, 1980. Five got the opportunity to head to Pensacola to start flight training. (Along with about 200 of their male classmates).
Fascinating that you feel secure to make the assumption of not being qualified in her case, and that someone better was, or must have been, overlooked.
But you have no basis for it.
I am all too familiar with the press for affirmative action in flight training and the demands put on the instructors and the training system to support that directive. You still attrite those who can't fly well enough. (Well, we did).
Make sure you lube up that cyclic thoroughly before you take a seat on it. It will save your 'rhoids from undue agitation.
But you have no basis for it.
I am all too familiar with the press for affirmative action in flight training and the demands put on the instructors and the training system to support that directive. You still attrite those who can't fly well enough. (Well, we did).
Make sure you lube up that cyclic thoroughly before you take a seat on it. It will save your 'rhoids from undue agitation.
I do hope you were not in the military as anyone with your emotive and personal style attacks (does not play the ball but the man) would have been hell to have as a superior.
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there is nothing superior to a fighter pilot - particularly one who does it onto a boat 
My little list of firsts has a shocking attrition rate! I wish this young lady well: safe landings and a fantastic career.
Lonewolf has used some interesting language in the last few days but I would say that the above attributes are EXACTLY what is required of a military man and woman there is nothing superior to a fighter pilot - particularly one who does it onto a boat
My little list of firsts has a shocking attrition rate! I wish this young lady well: safe landings and a fantastic career.
there is nothing superior to a fighter pilot - particularly one who does it onto a boat My little list of firsts has a shocking attrition rate! I wish this young lady well: safe landings and a fantastic career.
Can you expand on your " You still attrite those who can't fly well enough".
"Skipper, last quarter we had three attrites and six DORs. {Drop on Request; flight students haning up the cleats voluntarily} Their packages were reviewed by the Wing and CNATRA, except for one DOR. She's undergoing a psych eval with Medical; the other eight are pending orders from the Bureau."
Maybe they use a new term now.
As to launching attacks: my best CO's were the ones who went after anyone who tried to go after the people in their squadron.
I retired from active duty 15 years ago.
Although Air Force specific, a very good read on the subject at hand:
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...ght-180975332/
This thread is a shining example of the problem I have with so called "Affirmative Action" - it cheapens the accomplishments of those that get the job based on merit - not because of their gender or color of their skin - and reinforces the discriminatory belief that that they are inferior.
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...ght-180975332/
One question was directed at Leavitt in particular. A reporter asked if by going into fighter training so soon, she was “leapfrogging” over qualified men. When she tried to explain that she was following the same process as everyone else, the reporter asked McPeak to step in and clarify. “Jeannie graduated number one in her class,” he said. “She’s been in a holding pattern for six months. She’s not leapfrogging anyone. She’s been delayed.”
I would imagine Lt. Swegle is rightfully proud of her accomplishment. I truly hope she doesn’t stumble upon pprune and some of the posts here that attribute her success to her gender and skin color.
CG
Although Air Force specific, a very good read on the subject at hand:
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...ght-180975332/
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...ght-180975332/
An interesting article but, wow, what an unhappy looking bunch of aviators in that last photo.
I would imagine Lt. Swegle is rightfully proud of her accomplishment. I truly hope she doesn’t stumble upon PPRuNe and some of the posts here that attribute her success to her gender and skin color.
If you say so. I wonder if we don't agree on a few more things than we don't.
The term attrite refers to disenrolling people from flight training who can't meet standards. Well, it used to anyway.
(That is roughly how I briefed our CO one fine Monday afternoon, obviously not verbatim as it's been over 30 years ... ).
Maybe they use a new term now.
As to launching attacks: my best CO's were the ones who went after anyone who tried to go after the people in their squadron.
I retired from active duty 15 years ago.
The term attrite refers to disenrolling people from flight training who can't meet standards. Well, it used to anyway.
(That is roughly how I briefed our CO one fine Monday afternoon, obviously not verbatim as it's been over 30 years ... ).
Maybe they use a new term now.
As to launching attacks: my best CO's were the ones who went after anyone who tried to go after the people in their squadron.
I retired from active duty 15 years ago.
Disenrolling not even certain that’s a word. We suspend students from course.
If your CO is protecting his people than that’s what a good CO does. My point which you seem to miss on other numerous occasion’s is if you have superior that target people because they don’t like the way they “part their hair” are unprofessional and would be very unpleasant to work for.
I am pleased you where a member of the military. I retired from active service 24 months ago.
Standing around on a damp, dreary flight line whilst a snapper fiddles with his f-stops would probably tax the patience of a saint!
Disenrolling not even certain that’s a word.
You can call it a version of US Navy 'Newspeak'.
Aside: There is this never ending fiddling with jargon that can be a pain. We used to have the Replacement Air Group (RAG) for taking newly winged aviators and training them on the fleet type: F-14, CH-46, P-3, etc. We referred to it as "the rag" in conversation. Well, that apparently offended some of our more precious higher ups/congress critters as more ladies joined our ranks during the 80's. The Navy had to change the name. The units were reclassified as "Fleet Replacement Squadron" (FRS). As far as I can tell, that's still the proper term.
I am sure someone got a medal or a letter of commendation for coming up with that brilliant piece of word smithing.
We may have had it inflicted upon us - disenroll for remove from training - during the nascent USAF/USN JPATS development period. USAF uses a lot of strange terms, or so it seemed to me from a Naval perspective.
I am pleased you were a member of the military. I retired from active service 24 months ago.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 6th Aug 2020 at 15:42.