617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!
Absolutely agree Nutty.
It's one of our great hero's dogs FFS.
Have any of you who complain about such things ever tried to fly the route they flew that night when they destroyed the dams?
I have - in a fighter during daylight and it was bloody difficult - the Eder is mind boggling.
His dog died - so did several of his crews.
Thanks to all of you. Amazing feat of flying and courage. Who cares what the bloody dog was called???
It's one of our great hero's dogs FFS.
Have any of you who complain about such things ever tried to fly the route they flew that night when they destroyed the dams?
I have - in a fighter during daylight and it was bloody difficult - the Eder is mind boggling.
His dog died - so did several of his crews.
Thanks to all of you. Amazing feat of flying and courage. Who cares what the bloody dog was called???
Terrible PC bollix. 'Nigger' was indeed a part of the history of the raid and should not be 'cancelled' from history. I hope the idiot at Scampton who ordered this vandalism finds no peace.
We are all entitled to our views. The original plaque did not bother anyone, so why change it? My own personal view is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the name that Wg Cdr Gibson gave his dog; a common name for a black Lab at the time. We cannot change history, just learn from it.
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A lot of people in the thread above say they would never use the N word.
I’m the same, I wouldn’t either.
Let’s not forget that members of the black community, particularly males, refer to each other as N****r to this day.
I’m the same, I wouldn’t either.
Let’s not forget that members of the black community, particularly males, refer to each other as N****r to this day.
We are all entitled to our views. The original plaque did not bother anyone, so why change it? My own personal view is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the name that Wg Cdr Gibson gave his dog; a common name for a black Lab at the time. We cannot change history, just learn from it.
Different times, different values. history is history, you cannot change it, as much as you might like to.
Here it comes...
I have drunk more wine since my last post but my feelings have not changed.
I understand Squadron tradition etc but I am a white man with little sympathy for leftist leanings and I hate the word.
I honestly don’t care that it was acceptable 77 years ago. It isn’t now.
Anybody who knows about RAF history knows the real name of the dog. Anybody who doesn’t know the original name can read about it on Wikipedia.
Seriously people, don’t let your dislike for the contemporary habit of erasing history from distracting you from the fact that ni&@er is a word that just doesn’t need to be used in 2020.
Disagree with me all you like but you won’t change my mind.
Anyway, back to my wine.
BV
I understand Squadron tradition etc but I am a white man with little sympathy for leftist leanings and I hate the word.
I honestly don’t care that it was acceptable 77 years ago. It isn’t now.
Anybody who knows about RAF history knows the real name of the dog. Anybody who doesn’t know the original name can read about it on Wikipedia.
Seriously people, don’t let your dislike for the contemporary habit of erasing history from distracting you from the fact that ni&@er is a word that just doesn’t need to be used in 2020.
Disagree with me all you like but you won’t change my mind.
Anyway, back to my wine.
BV
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Anybody who knows about RAF history knows the real name of the dog. Anybody who doesn’t know the original name can read about it on Wikipedia.
Mind you we’ll all have probably been genetically modified by then to survive on the planet we destroyed and will all be a tasteful shade of grey.
Nutty
So what?!
It’s the name of a dog.
Nobody is erasing the history of the Dambusters raid. Nobody is erasing the fact that Guy Gibson won a VC for leading a Squadron on an incredibly dangerous mission during a fight for national survival.
What has happened is that someone has seen fit to change a memorial plaque to a dog (a fricking’ dog!) that had a name that is no longer acceptable.
Honesty, drunken BV is really struggling to see what the Bloody problem is.
BV
It’s the name of a dog.
Nobody is erasing the history of the Dambusters raid. Nobody is erasing the fact that Guy Gibson won a VC for leading a Squadron on an incredibly dangerous mission during a fight for national survival.
What has happened is that someone has seen fit to change a memorial plaque to a dog (a fricking’ dog!) that had a name that is no longer acceptable.
Honesty, drunken BV is really struggling to see what the Bloody problem is.
BV
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Along with the code word bob, enjoy your vino 
Let's remember this was the 1940's and referring to black people as niggers was the norm.
It was still common in the 60's as I can remember buying a polo shirt from BHS in Brighton that the colour was labelled as 'Nigger Brown'.
Again in the 60's we had a weekly 'To Death us do Part' where black folk were referred to as 'Coons'. Other TV shows such as 'Love thy Neighbour' and the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' were standard viewing.
It's history and can't be whitewashed [Sic].
It was still common in the 60's as I can remember buying a polo shirt from BHS in Brighton that the colour was labelled as 'Nigger Brown'.
Again in the 60's we had a weekly 'To Death us do Part' where black folk were referred to as 'Coons'. Other TV shows such as 'Love thy Neighbour' and the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' were standard viewing.
It's history and can't be whitewashed [Sic].
NbM
I understand how history works. I also understand how words such as the N word were used by many people in the past.
Your last example cite the 60s and 70s. Maybe it’s time to move on or maybe accept that your views are no longer appropriate.
Your opinion will undoubtedly be that I am a young upstart with no respect for his elders. I’m afraid that, increasingly, my opinion is that some people have no respect for other humans.
Yes, the wine has taken hold. But I’m not sorry.
BV
Your last example cite the 60s and 70s. Maybe it’s time to move on or maybe accept that your views are no longer appropriate.
Your opinion will undoubtedly be that I am a young upstart with no respect for his elders. I’m afraid that, increasingly, my opinion is that some people have no respect for other humans.
Yes, the wine has taken hold. But I’m not sorry.
BV
INTBH
Leave the book as it was. I’ve read it and appreciate it for what it was. I doubt if Paul Brickhill would wish his entire book to be remembered for the name of a dog.
I never said we should erase history. I’m just saying that a plaque that commemorates a dog (a dog!!) at a base that will soon cease to be a military establishment being altered is not the end of the world.
I guess this is a generational thing. Many of you think I have no respect for my forebears. The trouble is that, the more I read, the more I think some of you have no respect for your successors.
I guess we’re all wrong in each other’s eyes.
BV
I never said we should erase history. I’m just saying that a plaque that commemorates a dog (a dog!!) at a base that will soon cease to be a military establishment being altered is not the end of the world.
I guess this is a generational thing. Many of you think I have no respect for my forebears. The trouble is that, the more I read, the more I think some of you have no respect for your successors.
I guess we’re all wrong in each other’s eyes.
BV
Bob V
Well said! The “N” word is highly offensive and that’s widely recognised although not here on this forum perhaps.
I think we all believe that the heroism of 617 Sqn should be respected but it’s a small price to pay, in my view, to quietly drop reference to the dog’s name. Not in official records or historical books but where it might seen in public.
Well said! The “N” word is highly offensive and that’s widely recognised although not here on this forum perhaps.
I think we all believe that the heroism of 617 Sqn should be respected but it’s a small price to pay, in my view, to quietly drop reference to the dog’s name. Not in official records or historical books but where it might seen in public.
Last edited by BBK; 17th Jul 2020 at 06:32.
You simply cannot and should not attempt to change History! It was acceptable then, in the context of those times, and to try and change it today is an insult to the memory of those brave men who served their Country then.
I am offended by that insult to our History, but I guess that my sense of insult does not matter today in the fashionably sense of what is right today! Erase our History is the watchword.
TF
I am offended by that insult to our History, but I guess that my sense of insult does not matter today in the fashionably sense of what is right today! Erase our History is the watchword.
TF
One of the principles of Ingsoc. Orwell would be pleased.
In my opinion simply changing the headstone is vandalism in and of itself. It should be considered an irreplaceable War Grave.
Changing the words is another whole level of desecration. Gibson was not known for his enjoyment of fools and I could well imagine his thoughts at such an outrage. Has anyone thought of that? It was his dog, his name was immortalised with a specific historical significance and now we whitewash it? (pun intended).
This is akin to removing the names of all previous Prime Ministers because like the Egyptians there surely can only be one leader. Where is this complete nonsense going to stop???
Aren't records public? If you can't see something what's the point?
Whilst on the subject, perhaps we should get rid of all Roman history, aqueducts, Coliseum, in fact, level Rome (I know a good code word when it's done) most of Greece, the Pyramids, Bath, dig up and remove all stonework under almost every road in Europe....
In my opinion simply changing the headstone is vandalism in and of itself. It should be considered an irreplaceable War Grave.
Changing the words is another whole level of desecration. Gibson was not known for his enjoyment of fools and I could well imagine his thoughts at such an outrage. Has anyone thought of that? It was his dog, his name was immortalised with a specific historical significance and now we whitewash it? (pun intended).
This is akin to removing the names of all previous Prime Ministers because like the Egyptians there surely can only be one leader. Where is this complete nonsense going to stop???
Not in official records or historical books but where it might seen in public.
Whilst on the subject, perhaps we should get rid of all Roman history, aqueducts, Coliseum, in fact, level Rome (I know a good code word when it's done) most of Greece, the Pyramids, Bath, dig up and remove all stonework under almost every road in Europe....
I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade. (And again heresay - the dog was a target of a certain other Vulcan squadron who retaliated during the continuing war of the Tirpitz bulkhead).
He too said the actual grave wasn’t there.
He also said he knew where it really is, and those that were there in the war knew.
However he wouldn’t share the information.
(I have to add this even though it’s off topic.
He also got completely lost in a Wellington one night, and was in a Lancaster that looped, pulling up hard to avoid fighters, decided it was probably best just to try and go over the top, the aircraft held together and all was well. I didn’t realise the bombers were thrown around quite so much, but apparently they were when fighters turned up.)
The controversy around the dogs name is distracting from the actual valour shown on the raid. For that alone I personally advocate dropping it....as BV has said - it’s a dog. I’d rather recognise the heroism of the men involved.
Did the communique read by the BBC, announcing the raid the morning after, include the line ‘...and the raid leader’s dog also died’? No, I guess not. My assessment then is that the dog wasn’t really an integral part of that history, therefore, no-one is trying to re-write history, apart from those elevating the status of a dog to that of deity.
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I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors. Here we go.
What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.
By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.
Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.
And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.
The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.
What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.
By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.
Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.
And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.
The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.