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617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

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617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

Old 16th Jul 2020, 16:38
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IMO it is wrong to change it, but the opinions of a bunch of ageing privileged white men are hardly relevant to this current societal movement.

And whoever changed it, they missed a full stop after the ".....Black Labrador Dog......." The word Mascot should be the start of a new sentence.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 16:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade. (And again heresay - the dog was a target of a certain other Vulcan squadron who retaliated during the continuing war of the Tirpitz bulkhead).
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 16:51
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
With all due respect, I believe you’re wrong.

Nobody is calling Guy Gibson a racist for naming his dog as he did. Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure.

Some people, me included, just think that the name is no longer appropriate. Just as other words have fallen out of useage.

It is not erasing history. It is merely glossing over the name of a dog.

If you would honestly feel comfortable standing in front of a crowd of people and proudly stating aloud the name of the dog without feeling just a hint of embarrassment then well done you. I certainly couldn’t.

I know the black dog’s name is something of a cause celebre on here but I think there are far better things to gnash your teeth about than this.

BV
i understand where you are coming from Bob but I also disagree, The name may no longer be appropriate but that does not remove the fact that it was and is fact.

To take it to an extreme, naked images of children are no longer rightly deemed appropriate, but the world if full of art and statues featuring Putti and Cherubs, from the Royal State Coach through to the Vatican there are statues and art featuring putti and cherubs, history is full of art from Rome onwards, do we now remove those items That offend because they to are no longer appropriate in the modern world? Where do you draw a line or stop?

Rome took and put to death slaves, do we delete them from history, one could list faults with most “Civilisations” but at some point if you destroy all history and wipe the map clean, are we better people for it?

I think not, because we learn from our history, our faults, and our progress, without that learning, Slavery, Racism and hate would possibly still be with us at far more prevalent levels than it is now.

Christ is more or less always portrayed as white, but when I was still at School we visited a monastery in Spain or Portugal that had a black infant Christ, and they pointed out that in the Middle East it was quite possible that Christ was of Middle Eastern or of African origins..


History draws a finicky line.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 17:37
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
....Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure......
BV
The N-name doesn't endure - the callsign is now "BlackDog", and isn't used by 617 Sqn!
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 17:40
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
What if the dogs name was C*nt (rhymes with hunt)?! Would we still use the name in 2020?
BV
I've been called a bleeding heart liberal before, but I'm with OP on this one. If it was called n****r, it was called n****r and that should stay on the gravestone. If you're offended by the truth, tough. If an old fashioned word upsets you so much, don't go around looking at old things.

Same if the name was c**t. Although that's not a fair comparison because as far as I know that's never been an acceptable word, so you would never have someone called that.

Not officially, anyway.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 17:49
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Personally I would be more concerned with the fact that 55 brave young men, the flower of Britain and its Commonwealth failed to return from that raid and now lie buried all over Europe.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 17:51
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Originally Posted by just another jocky
And whoever changed it, they missed a full stop after the ".....Black Labrador Dog......." The word Mascot should be the start of a new sentence.
But they also changed Oder to Eder! (an original typo!)


I just hope the original is put in a museum somewhere, not trashed in a skip!!!
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 17:56
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I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade
The story I heard when I was there was that the dog was never buried outside Gibson’s office at all, the 2 erks detailed to so just threw him over the hedge on the other side of the A15, disturbed the soil and said they’d done it. It seems the dog was none too popular as it was allowed to roam freely (how it ended up dying) leaving it’s mess everywhere which they had to clear up.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 18:23
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Air Pig

I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison. Himmler or Heydrich’s names are not offensive in and of themselves.

I realise you all think I’m just a young upstart with no respect for history but that is not the case.

If OC 617’s surname had been N$&@er I would agree with you. But we’re talking about his dog. Airbrushing over it’s name changes nothing in my opinion.

The Squadron were still undeniably brave and their exploits legend.

I honestly think that people hanging onto the importance of the dog’s name are just using it as an excuse to say a word they know is socially unacceptable in 2020 but they feel they have an entitlement to use because it is the right of their generation.

I’m being blunt and that’s because I have been drinking wine but the gist of what I’m saying would be unchanged if I were sober.

BV
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 18:28
  #30 (permalink)  
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BV, wine soaked, or not, I completely agree with you. The name is historical but not significant enough for it to be regarded as a national treasure. Its time has passed and I think this replacement is sympathetically done enough to show the significance to the event in 1943 but not to cause offence. I’d rather have this new plaque than wait a while longer and have the original vandalised by some oik and it splattered all over Faceagram for effect. Let’s face it, we’ve allsniggered at its ‘naughtiness’ for years so we knew its time was over.

Last edited by MG; 16th Jul 2020 at 19:27.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 18:35
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Originally Posted by MG
BV, wine soaked, or not, I completely agree with you. The name is historical but not significant enough for it to be regarded as a national treasure. Its time has passed and I think this replacement is sympathetically done enough to show the significance to the event in 1943 but not to cause offence. I’d rather have this new plaque than wait a while longer and have it vandalised by some oik and it splattered all over Faceagram for effect. Let’s face it, we’ve all really sniggered at its ‘naughtiness’ for years.
I do hope that those who paid to replace the headstone were not niggardly.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 18:47
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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^^^^^That's a different word with a different meaning. Not quite sure what you are trying to prove LB? Other than being obtuse.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 19:16
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I honestly think that people hanging onto the importance of the dog’s name are just using it as an excuse to say a word they know is socially unacceptable in 2020 but they feel they have an entitlement to use because it is the right of their generation.
I agree. Oh - and Specaircrew, as a member of 35 Sqn I have of course upheld the tradition of peeing on that so-called grave!

If you look at the last few minutes of The Dambusters when 'Gibson' and 'Barnes Wallis' are talking, a black dog can be seen running about in the background. It was thought by the tinfoil hat brigade that this was the ghost of Gibson's dog - but I heard lter that when a member of the film crew queried this with some airman, he replied "No mate, there's no n***** at Scampton" using the contemporary expression for a 'person of colour'......

A Nigerian chap on the CFS course after mine remarked "Will I get a grave that good if I crash and kill myself?"
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 19:56
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My problem with this is that the controversy surrounding the name of the dog detracts from remembering what they all did. It is difficult to have a discussion about the Dambusters without it coming up somewhere (ooooh they are remaking the film, what are they going to call the dog?). Like it or not the word is now controversial and deeply offensive to some so it is probably time, not to 'erase it from history' but to at least try to remove it from things that are obviously in the public domain, if that means taking it off a gravestone then so be it. However if someone asks what the name of the dog was there is no need to lie and I wouldn't want to see the name removed from books on the subject or of course from historical records.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 19:56
  #35 (permalink)  
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The original gravestone was given a tour of the dams when it was nicked by a 4 Sqn Det in the early eighties. The Staish and OC 617 Sqn went harpic and it was returned pronto! No doubt the prick that decided to replace the gravestone is demanding that libraries burn all the books with 'bad words' in them.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 19:57
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Originally Posted by unclenelli
The dog's name was used as the codeword for "Breach of the Mohne Dam".
Is Paul Brickhill's book being withdrawn from libraries to be reprinted....????




The grave is not in the public domain, and all who do have access understand totally its relevence to the history books!
But with the rumoured plan being closure of Scampton and disposal of the real estate, it might well end up being in public view, and devalue said real estate

Just my twopence

Ttfn
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 20:01
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Originally Posted by Vat is Jetstream
It is the grave of a dog. Yes the owner was very famous the night it was buried, but it is the grave of a dog, nothing more. Agree with Bob V.
To all those of you who have never been a Dambuster....your opinions on the worth of dismantling part of the history of a Sqn you have not been a member of are barely relevant.

To those of us who have been, or still are, Dambusters, I can't imagine too many of us would agree with the cancellation of a part of the founding history of our Sqn.

It was the Gibsons' dog's name, it forms a relevant and poignant part of our Sqn history from that day to this.

No disrespect intended.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 20:08
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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My parents met in Kenya (Durban) during the war when he was a Sunderland Captain on 209 Squadron and she was a CPO Wren.
Life was different then when people had "servants" when, in UK, they would not. What they called them was not insulting - it was just the language of the day which, thankfully has changed.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 20:13
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Originally Posted by Specaircrew

...replacing it with a 'sanitised' version can be justified. Just how many people are 'offended' by history?
Personally, I am offended by the notion that a human can ‘own’ a dog.

Last edited by 5000 metres; 16th Jul 2020 at 20:24.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 20:15
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Where do you stop all this PC’ness? An RAF Wardog, has it not earned its right to be buried under its own name? It earned its number.



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