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Fire - USS Bonhomme Richard LHD-6 - 12 Jul 20

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Fire - USS Bonhomme Richard LHD-6 - 12 Jul 20

Old 15th Jul 2020, 09:56
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Imagegear, I was thinking of a possibility along those lines but probably just negligence. Not a military story but a paper factory, which was a client of my father's, was burnt to the ground by a blow torch "left" burning on the new roof, there was suspicion it was arson but nothing could be proved.

Anyway, General Ghaani the new head of the IRGC's Quds Force has identified the reponsible party as God.

Ship Fire is Divine Punishiment for Washington's Crimes

GeeRam, as a former metallurgy student that's why I was trying to identify if it was F or C if it wasas ORAC says F the damage will have been less. I would have thought it is a question of determining how much has been damaged and if it is economic to cut out and replace.

I wouldn't be surprised if this increases the chances of PoW being deployed out East for USMC F-35s to operate off in the medium term. Problem is replacing the troop carrying and amphipious landing capabiity - she could carry the equivalent of 2 Commandos+ more than twice the number Ocean could embark. Better not start riding my hobby horse of the RN's need for a real LPH.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 10:44
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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The rear ramp shows the amount of list on her quite well.




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Old 15th Jul 2020, 11:11
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest and I know its a daft suggestion, but given the possible weakening of the structure etc, the QE and P of W were built modular ( as in the picture below ) I realise the ships were fitted out after assembly, but could they not simply construct new sections if needed and then cut and insert those into the ship? that way the sections could be fitted out and built off hull as the hull is being stripped ready to accept them? Barking I know, but stranger things have happened in life.


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Old 15th Jul 2020, 11:29
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
The melting point is not the issue, a serious 1000C fire over 48 hours will have changed the structural properties of the steel. It will start to soften at only 450C and will loose 50% of its strength at 650C, which is usually the temp range that you stress relieve steel at.

The ship is toast.....well done toast at that.
Agree about the metal weakening. However that does not all point to the repairability of the ship. Consider that the fire burns upward in a localized location., only the structural parts directly above it will be seriously damaged. I'm guessing that much of the damage is repairable. Of course that does leave the possibility that some critical parts are damaged to the point where it is too costly to repair. I'm sure the Navy has lots of experience in this over the last 100 years
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 11:31
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Is she repairable? One only has to look at the proportionate damage to the USS Cole others plus go back to Forrestal and even Pear Harbor to see what American industry can do. Replacement $4Bn and 5 years or so, repair $1-2bn and 3-4 years is my guess. She is parked next to the GD shipyard who know her well.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 11:38
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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More than half way through her service life, probably better to put the money towards another America class ship probably. Sad to see but after that long in a hot oven I’m not sure it will be a viable fix.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 12:01
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Nutty, the previous ship LHD-5 USS Bataan was definitely modular construction, don't know it LHD-6 was constructed the same way.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 12:37
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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They're all built that way. Ingalls were pioneers in that technique forty-odd years ago.

Any significant structural replacement would probably go that way in any case. The island (which is ally by the way) would be a new fabrication. The real cost will depend on how much cabling has been damaged / destroyed internally, particularly below the hangar deck where watertight integrity issues significantly affect the ease of replacement.

Personally think she's a CTL, but will depend on operational priorities. Digging any of the old LHA out of reserve would be similarly costly - particularly for F35 mods.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 13:13
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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In my youth I studied metallurgy and had the opportunity not only to study grain structure and characteristics of different types of steel. I also spent time on the shop floor working with preheating furnaces and studying austenitic effects at different temperatures. We always worked on an austenitic temperature transition starting around 723 degrees C. The effects on steel at uncontrolled and variable high temperatures is unimaginable. (Think twin towers)

If you feel like swimming among crocodiles, this paper will provide you with sleepless nights: Steel - Austenitic variables.

In my opinion, this vessel is almost totally compromised and should be decontaminated and scuttled. Even if the keel and bottom two decks/tanks, etc could be salvaged, it would not be worth the effort since the scrap value is limited.

IG
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 13:23
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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I see why the US are wanting the carriers after reading this

https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...aritime-claims
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 13:59
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
To quote Barnes Wallis " it's hard to make things fool-proof as the fools are so damn clever at finding a way round any precautions"
Nothing is fool-proof. The best you can hope for is idiot-resistant.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 14:27
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SLXOwft View Post
Imagegear, I was thinking of a possibility along those lines but probably just negligence. Not a military story but a paper factory, which was a client of my father's, was burnt to the ground by a blow torch "left" burning on the new roof, there was suspicion it was arson but nothing could be proved.
.....................
Same happened to the WRNS Quarters, HMS Daedalus, for exactly the same reason one evening I think in about 1979, tho the building survived due to the Fire Piquet expanding by over 5000% when the Tannoy announced the location of the fire!!! When the civvie Fire Brigade arrived the audience were 6 deep! There were WRNS bailing out everywhere dressed in various forms night of attire - so I'm reliably informed of course.

Re the ship, it will be like writing off aircraft or even a car after an accident; often there is much additional damage due to the fire fighting efforts in adjacent compartments, particularly if a ship is quite "open" as is often the case with extended refits. Water gets everywhere even when closed up properly as odd seals don't work/get damaged or a fire hose leaks and smoke damage can be widespread - especially if the ventilation is not crash-stopped. Lots of stuff like wiring, for example, will have to go, even if not directly affected by fire, but maybe simply due to the heat of the hot air perhaps venting through several compartments raising the temperatures in them to an unknown level. No obvious signs of damage but still now an "unknown" so will need replacing. With access open for heavy maintenance teams, it's a Damage Control Officer's worst nightmare as the spread of direct and indirect effects is far less restricted - across, up and down!

As I say, my story a few posts above of the Paint Store fire led to quite a bit of damage to adjoining compartments - bearing in mind it was (a) very small, (b) the Damage Control WO was actually stood about 4 m away from it when it started, and, (c) the aircrew had just run out a load of hoses for the "exercise" which were then used by the Ships Standing Sea Fire Party when they arrived so that meant water was on metal quite a bit quicker than expected. I'll leave it to you to decide why he felt it was better to delay the re-entry until the Ships Team had arrived rather than send the aircrew lads in as "Wave 1".....

And my job as allocated to me by the DC WO? "Sir, do me a really big favour ........ just get this lot out of here!" Duty sheep-dog herding aircrew away!
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 15:22
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure he didn't believe they were WAFU. Far better to let the professionals do it for real.

Looking at the tour clip, I was struck by the large open areas, there seemed to be long runs without a hatchway (and an absence of built in trip hazards) but generally how shiny and uncluttered she was compared to Lusty in her later years.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 16:37
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
We always worked on an austenitic temperature transition starting around 723 degrees C. The effects on steel at uncontrolled and variable high temperatures is unimaginable. (Think twin towers)
I can hear my old materials science professor now, talking about that transition ...
In my opinion, this vessel is almost totally compromised and should be decontaminated and scuttled.
That is an uninformed opinion, given that you don't know the extent of the area exposed to those temperatures. They are going to have to do a detailed assessment of what has to be cut away due to material structural degradation (which you rightly mention) versus what remains that isn't so affected. The info that you and I are exposed to is media reports. I'd hold off on suggesting that they turn it into razor blades until NAVSEA send out an engineering team and they do formal investigation and analysis.
(In the end, your guess might be on target)

Been not quite 30 years since I was in San Diego; it is doubly frustrating to me that they had apparently completed most of the mods during the availability period and then the holes in the cheese lined up and the fire started.
Not going to completely bet against one of your earlier posts suggesting sabotage - it's possible, but given how many known risks there are to overhaul and mod work in a shipyard, I'll offer that it is a very low ball bet, if any, on that being the trigger. But that needs to be looked into, IMO.
A couple of my friends served on that ship in the early 00's, sorry to see her suffer this
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 17:05
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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As you say, a decision will only be made after a qualified engineering team are able to assess the damage. How one can even begin to analyse every potential hotspot for what is effectively internal granular restructuring on a vessel of that size is well below my pay scale.

Sometime after I left her, the Sir Galahad slipped beneath the waves off Stanley and watching the news at the time, it was devastating knowing the conditions under which so many perished. Another, the old Ark Royal eventually went for "razor blades", not so much dying as fading away.

A long time ago for me, but still brings back memories.

IG
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 18:29
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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The US did some pretty amazing repairs in the aftermath of the Pearl Harbor attack as outlined in this book: "Resurrection: Salvaging the Battle Fleet at Pearl Harbor" (I read it a couple years ago)
Amazon Amazon
In short, most of the ships sunk or badly damaged during the attack were repaired and returned to active duty before the end of the war (the most notable exceptions being the battleships Arizona and Oklahoma). It's hard to imagine the fire damage to theBonhomme Richard is more severe that what happened the West Virginia or Nevada on Dec. 7 1941.
Now, if it is cost (and/or time) effectiveis a completely different question - I'm sure there are some bean counter types already looking at that aspect. But I don't think there is any question it can be repaired and returned to service if so desired.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 20:09
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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The famous Tempil chart says no grain growth below about 1300 F. If there was a concern, though, the amount of paint damage would probably be a reasonably reliable guide to the amount of heating. The biggest concern might just be distortion of the structure, both because steel isn't very strong at 1000 degrees F, and because of stresses due to differential heating.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 20:51
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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I haven't seen anything yet on what the Navy considers the value of putting a ship back to sea vs scrapping. I believe that some battle damage throughout the years was so bad that cost to repair was greater than the value of the finished product. Going back to WWII, all battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor other than the AZ and OK were put back into service. Was there a morale value in putting ships into action the Japanese had sunk? How about the Cole. Wasn't considerable value placed on putting the ship back into service therefore being able to say they dished out their best but we persevered. Franklin and Bunker Hill come to mind as ships that possibly have been let go saving sailor lives vs being able to say we brought her home. In this case we have an accidental fire while in port, not a ship suffering battle damage. Will this contribute to the decision whether or not to restore a ship that has served 2/3 of its design life? Sailors would hate to lose their ship while they are assigned but when is it time to cut your losses. I assume that only a detailed damage assessment followed by cost to repair estimate will be needed and wondered how maintaining the Navy's image fits in.
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 21:03
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I can hear my old materials science professor now, talking about that transition ...
That is an uninformed opinion, given that you don't know the extent of the area exposed to those temperatures. They are going to have to do a detailed assessment of what has to be cut away due to material structural degradation (which you rightly mention) versus what remains that isn't so affected. The info that you and I are exposed to is media reports. I'd hold off on suggesting that they turn it into razor blades until NAVSEA send out an engineering team and they do formal investigation and analysis.
(In the end, your guess might be on target)

Been not quite 30 years since I was in San Diego; it is doubly frustrating to me that they had apparently completed most of the mods during the availability period and then the holes in the cheese lined up and the fire started.
Not going to completely bet against one of your earlier posts suggesting sabotage - it's possible, but given how many known risks there are to overhaul and mod work in a shipyard, I'll offer that it is a very low ball bet, if any, on that being the trigger. But that needs to be looked into, IMO.
A couple of my friends served on that ship in the early 00's, sorry to see her suffer this
Regarding sabotage, I sure hope not and would bet against it, however it wouldn’t be the first time a warship was taken out in peacetime while at the docks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)
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Old 15th Jul 2020, 21:17
  #120 (permalink)  
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NWA SLF hits the nail. As an outsider, I'd guess that there will be a massive research project over three or four months, that will declare the risks and costs too high. We all understand the military desire to bring back their dead but this one would take so long to investigate and test and repair - no one could be sure that every plate and joint would hold up under maximum stress.

(I now risk a high level of response) The Americans might want more hardware in the Pacific but they cannot win against China. That is, not so much about 'win' a hot war - but the long term battle for 'top dog' status - for that is already lost. It's just that many Americans do not yet realise it.
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