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Primary flying training duration

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Primary flying training duration

Old 3rd Jul 2020, 20:15
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Originally Posted by Ant T
My Dad died last year aged 85, and I now have his logbooks.
He was Fleet Air Arm.
Basic training between Feb 56 and March 57 was 6 months/135 hours on Provost T1, at Syerston, followed by 6 months/115 hours on Vampire T11/FB5 at Valley, before going on to Gannets, and eventually anti-submarine helicopters via Hiller12, Whirlwind, Wessex.
Very similar to Ant T’s post. Dad died 3 years ago aged 86. BFT/AFT at Syerston Dec 52 - Sep 53, Prentice and Harvard. 200 hrs of which nearly 100 solo- an excellent ratio. Had to wait a short time before starting OFT at Culdrose, so held at RNAS Gosport and RNAS Lee-on-Solent. In just 6 weeks, in addition to some more Harvard time, he managed to qualify on the Tiger Moth, 2 marks of Firefly and the Sea Fury T20. His log book reveals that a day after his first flight in the Sea Fury, he took his future wife (3/O WRNS) flying in said aircraft - those were the days! Like Ant’s dad, Gannet, Hiller, Whirlwind and Wessex followed.
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 20:17
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FED - yes no real holding. Attested in Nairobi in Apr 63 so fellow colonial (5200...)
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 21:46
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When I got my wings at Swinderby in August 1957 things started to go very wrong. I was very pleased with my Hunter posting, which meant holding at Valley where Royal Naval Pilots were trained. After a couple of months filling in time with the odd Vampire trip my Hunter course was cancelled due to the Duncan Sandys axe and I was posted to Dishforth as a UT Hastings 2nd pilot. I learned how to raise the flaps and undercarriage and do the odd job, but never learned to fly the aeroplane. Three months later I was posted to 99 Sqn as a second pilot. It was a soul destroying job, with the only sanity being we had to do 100 hours per year 1st pilot to keep our flying pay! For this we had an Anson and two Chipmunks to play with. The second pilots on Comet 2s had a pair of Meteor 7s to do the same thing. I managed to get the job of OIC of our three aircraft, which kept me sane.
When everybody on 99 were posted to Colerne in January 1959 and Britannia pilots were posted in I was posted to the Middle East on Twin Pioneers three months later, thanks I think to the high number of hours accumulated on the Anson.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 05:50
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Joined October ‘57, wings September ‘59 then a couple of months holding at Valley on Vampires anticipating Hunters. Instead got “volunteered” to go to CFS- b..gger!
FED, l see you were at Oakington when I was insructing.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 07:07
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I presume that you weren't the one that demonstrated a wheels up at Marham.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 10:30
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No, but nearly had a head on at the top of a loop with the whole of the Firebirds formation team.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 01:13
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70's Training
An interesting exchange on another corner of the interweb got me wondering about RAF Pilot/Officer training in the early 70's and wondered if anyone could throw a little light on it. Its context is potentially a bit 'Waltish'. The nature of the discussion is that he's implying he was an RAF Pilot, no mention of his snowdrop service.
The chap says he 'Got his wings' many decades ago. A quick look at web links of his indicate rank Flt Lt, Pilot Training 72-76 and then RAF Provost branch 76 to career end. Uni 65-68. Data from his online public accessible profiles.
s that appears an unusual (to my limited knowledge), what was the training sylabus?
On entry from civvy street how long would the basic officer training have taken, and at what part in that would he start flying and accruing hours? Allowing for initial entry training is there sufficient time to receive his wings within that 3-4 years before joining the rozzers? Intrigued by the branch change too, however....
What in simple terms does that phrase mean? Once you have your wings what would be the next steps? Why would you rebranch to Provost rather than a flying associated department? I have no doubt he could well have been accepted for Pilot officer aircrew training.
Ta in advance..
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:40
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Joined 31 Oct 66 AOTS S Cerney, Grad 16 Feb 67. Previous RAF Flying Scholarship so straight to 6 FTS Acklington JP3/4 Apr67. 156 Dual 46 Solo. First Jet Solo after 6 hrs. Wings Feb 68. Brief hold Chipmunks Ouston 5.30 Dual 2.20 Solo. 5FTS Oakington, March - Aug 68 Varsitiy 86.40 Dual 19.00 Capt. First ME "Solo" after 13 hrs. Heavy landing at Stradishall after 16 hrs, WL677 written off. Solo again 2 days later! after 1.20 Dual Check! Held HQ Coastal Aug 68 - Apr 69 (Back log due TSR2/F111 fiasco). Refresher 5 FTS Apr 69 24.00 Dual 2.30 Solo. MOTU St Mawgan, Shackleton MR2 180 hrs, "Solo" 4 eng piston after12 hrs Jun - Oct 69. Operational Nov 69 (3 years join to operational) Total hrs to Operational approx 500).


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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:43
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Originally Posted by jumpseater
70's Training
An interesting exchange on another corner of the interweb got me wondering about RAF Pilot/Officer training in the early 70's and wondered if anyone could throw a little light on it. Its context is potentially a bit 'Waltish'. The nature of the discussion is that he's implying he was an RAF Pilot, no mention of his snowdrop service.
The chap says he 'Got his wings' many decades ago. A quick look at web links of his indicate rank Flt Lt, Pilot Training 72-76 and then RAF Provost branch 76 to career end. Uni 65-68. Data from his online public accessible profiles.
s that appears an unusual (to my limited knowledge), what was the training sylabus?
On entry from civvy street how long would the basic officer training have taken, and at what part in that would he start flying and accruing hours? Allowing for initial entry training is there sufficient time to receive his wings within that 3-4 years before joining the rozzers? Intrigued by the branch change too, however....
What in simple terms does that phrase mean? Once you have your wings what would be the next steps? Why would you rebranch to Provost rather than a flying associated department? I have no doubt he could well have been accepted for Pilot officer aircrew training.
Ta in advance..
At that time Initial Officer Training (IOT) was 16 weeks for direct entry cadets. For those who were University Cadets it was 14 weeks because there was a two week University Cadet Introductory Course prior to starting with the UAS. Basic flying training (Jet Provost) commenced on completion of IOT and 'Wings' were awarded at the end of Basic Flying Training. There was often little or no holding between courses back then and so wings were awarded some 15 - 18 months after starting IOT. This changed around 1977/78 to wings being awarded at the end of Advanced Flying Training but even then it was typically around 2 to 2 1/2 years from starting IOT to being awarded your wings.

I agree that his career path sounds unusual, and if someone spent 4 years as a pilot then changed branch it could be that they were medically downgraded or did not satisfactorily complete flying training. But there could be another reason.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 12:40
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Hi olddog - still going strong I see.

I followed exactly the same training regimen as olddog (only I was down the back for the heavy landing at Stradishall). Same holding at both Ouston and Northwood/HQCC but course after him at MOTU, flying virtually same number of hours throughout. Of note was the hold at Ouston/NUAS - I'd never flown Chipmunk, but as I had wings it was assumed I could fly, and went solo (1 hour circuits and aeros !!) after a 1 hour dual check. 3yrs 2 months to Squadron with 1 year holding, 520 hours.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 13:52
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Gents, thank you for your thoughts, that puts a little more context for me. I did ask what types he’d flown, and he avoided that question which was what tweeked the ‘Waltometer’, which is particularly relative to the original discussion. Perhaps if he’s still emphasises he was an RAF ‘Pilot’ I should thank him for his 15 years service, especially the eleven with the Rozzers..

If his career was cut short medically i’d have a good degree of sympathy, but 30+ years later I’d wonder why you’d paint the picture you were a Pilot, rather than you started as a pilot and for whatever reason changed career path, staying in the service.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 15:39
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[...] I should thank him for his 15 years service [...]
Aargh - not that sycophantic "Thank you for service" platitude which seems to have made its way across the Atlantic these days.

A quick look at web links of his indicate rank Flt Lt, Pilot Training 72-76 and then RAF Provost branch 76 to career end. Uni 65-68
Quite reasonable - a few holds were quite common during training back then. At White Waltham we had a chap who was at the AEF downstairs flying space cadets whilst holding for an OCU; as a break from Chipmunking, now and again he would nip off to do some Hunter refresher flying. You could easily drag pilot training out to 4 years only to be chopped at Chiv - and prefer a branch change rather than becoming a nav because in 1976 you might be lucky to be offered ME pilot training only if you'd made it to an OCU! There was a glut of ME pilots at the time and the worthless Jetstreams went into storage for a while, although some refresher training was flown on the Beech Baron at Bournemouth.

I was at Valley in 1975 when some chap came into the bar only to be recognised by people who'd been on the same Officer Training course - but had later become a Provost officer. "Hello, mate - what are you doing in this neck of the woods?" he was asked. "Err, oh I'm visiting a friend in OMQs" or somesuch excuse was the reply.

Actually, probably nothing of the sort. This was at exactly the time when Alistair Steadman, an ex-Vulcan captain who lived on Anglesey, was arrested for trying to sell secrets to the Russians. Convicted, he served 9 years behind bars!

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 16:44
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[QUOTE=BEagle;10941700]Aargh - not that sycophantic "Thank you for service" platitude
[s/QUOTE]

Indeed. That one.

Edit: tvm for additional context
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 19:13
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As I explained before I joined the RAF in Salisbury, now Harare, in 1960. When I did my first solo I sent a telegram to my father, a long time RAF pilot informing him of the fact.

He sent a reply: 'Congratulations on your first solo. you will never have to work again'.

Never any truer words.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 05:45
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We have a "Walt" in our local golf club. When I joined, I was told, "Ah, you must know Blah Blah, he was a pilot in Vietnam."
The name didn't ring a bell, and it was some weeks before I met him. I asked about his 9 Sqn service, he said he was in Vietnam in (year). It still didn't fit, so I asked what pilot course he was on. Err..err.. I was a crewman gunner on Hueys. Twenty years later he got a private helicopter licence, and would take members for a gallop to stay current. He realised he was well and truly rumbled. But the story persisted, he had been in Vietnam on Hueys, and he is a pilot, ergo, he was an air force pilot.

I didn't pop his balloon to other people, just grinned and changed the subject.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 13:37
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I did ask what types he’d flown, and he avoided that question which was what tweeked the ‘Waltometer’, which is particularly relative to the original discussion
I'm not surprised - definitely sounds fishy!
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 17:57
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Our resident pub "Walt " was a Meteor pilot who couldn't remember what marks he flew,,...........
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 21:10
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What where the stages for a fleet air arm pilot before they converted onto Bucaneer/Phantom/Sea Vixen ?
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 17:37
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madhon,

I think, as there were RN folk alongside me at various times in my training;

Aircrew selection - OASC RAF Biggin Hill.

Navy officer type selection- Admiralty interview Board somewhere in the West Country.

Officer Training - BRNC Dartmouth, which included some Chipmunk grading hours at Plymouth.

Primary, or later Elementary flying training - RAF Church Fenton or Linton On Ouse at various times on Chipmunk.

Basic Flying Training - RAF Linton On Ouse or Church Fenton at various times on Jet Provost.

Advanced Flying Training - Until 1969 at RNAS Brawdy on Hunter T8 and GA11. Then Hunter weapons at RNAS Lossiemouth.

Type conversion - RNAS Yeovilton for Sea Vixen or Phantom, RNAS Lossiemouth for Buccaneer.

All changed from 1968 onwards when the phase out of RN fixed wing flying was announced and Brawdy, and eventually Lossiemouth, closed as RN stations. After that increasing percentages of fixed wing aircrew for the Buccaneer and Phantom were provided by the RAF, and the RN only took potential helicopter pilots. Phantom and Buccaneer conversion work transferred to the RAF at Honington and Leuchars alongside the last two operational squadrons.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 18:28
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A bit off topic but was it true that in the 1950's the Admiralty Interview Board had questions relating to the ballroom dancing abilities of the prospective Naval Officer ?
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