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Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters

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Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters

Old 4th Jan 2021, 12:09
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A global shortage of pilots?

On which planet?
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 12:21
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Declan275
...... Unfortunately the White Paper mentioned is notorious in Irish military circles. Less than half the projects have been started, let alone finished. I’ll say that the military side of the house have been keen to drive these things along and leave it at that. .......
Cheers Dec, all copied and understood! A sadly familiar tale I suspect the world over....... I recall some bunfights over Naval AEW (or lack of it) when the last but one Ark Royal went in '78. History shows what happened next!!! Roll out the "Bag" - even if too late to help "Down South"!!!!
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 12:23
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Perhaps narrow that to a global shortage of Irish* pilots with military fixed wing or rotary experience.

* Citizens of other EU/EEA nations can apply though I am unsure of the language requirements. Are applicants required to hold a qualification in Gaelic?

Let me answer my own question

https://www.military.ie/en/careers/a...s-cadet-pilot/

A candidate’s educational qualifications must include a minimum of:....

(ii) Irish. NUI matriculation exemptions apply.”.....
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 12:33
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Perhaps narrow that to a global shortage of Irish* pilots with military fixed wing or rotary experience.

* Citizens of other EU/EEA nations can apply though I am unsure of the language requirements. Are applicants required to hold a qualification in Gaelic?
It’s an odd one, to have the minimum educational requirements you need to have a Leaving Cert ( end of secondary school ) which de facto includes Irish. If however, you can demonstrate you didn’t receive primary level Irish ( if you’re an EU citizen, of Irish descent or otherwise), you get a waiver on that.

All foot drill orders are however given in Irish, but you are usually helped along by the NCOS with your motivation to pick up a few words...

The global shortage statement probably dates from before the full impact of Covid 19 hit. Nevertheless, the re-entries of late are all on limited time contracts ( as far as I know anyway). Once the world recovers, the same underlying issues will remain to be solved in some way.

It would seem like a due reward to all inside the gates at Bal to have long term solutions lined up by then.
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 20:43
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High
pr00ne, I suspect you and Tuc are refering to the same basic process - just by a different name - and maybe from different eras and/or areas. I used "Business Cases" myself in the 90's, and weren't there things called "Alternative Assumptions" ahead of that delightful bunfight called the latest "LTC round"? TBH, I've forgotten how it all hung together - quite possibly as it wasn't entirely clear to me at the time!!!!!

I do recall one Project I was managing (I was working remotely with my own little Team based on the other side of the country from HQ) and, each month, I'd submit a fairly detailed picture of actual spend vs planned spend and an updated FOO. Eventually, the phone rang and the PA to the Finance bod wanted to speak to me.

"H 'n' H, we are all just wondering but why do you keep on sending in these Financial Progress Reports?". "Coz Finance bod told me to!". "Ahhhhhhh, OK. We just thought it a bit odd .... as you are the only one who seems to have even the vaguest clue as to how much they are spending! No-one else from here even sends them in any more!".

MoD finance at it's best!!!!

Hot 'n' High,

My experience is very current, as in about 6 hours ago! So the process I described is what is used now.

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Old 4th Jan 2021, 20:49
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know if this point has been raised before, but why now? Why after all these decades of the Cold War and the three decades since which has seen Russia, for example, become a far less significant military threat, to albeit becoming one again, why is Ireland concerned about fielding a standing force of Fighter aircraft now?

FB
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 21:27
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
Hot 'n' High, My experience is very current, as in about 6 hours ago! So the process I described is what is used now.
Thankfully mine isn't nearly as up to date as now long behind me!

I suspect Tuc and I are just remembering processes/terminology from a while ago. But I suspect the concept was the same back then as it is now - namely, due process to obtain funds iaw the rules/regs/naming conventions in use at the time - that's what I meant! Even I can't ever remember an "Admiralty Board Submission" - but, again, guess it depended which Vote it came from and a lot of my stuff came via the RAF - despite the colour of my Uniform! An ABS very likely included what was effectively a "Business Case" (i.e. costed justification) as part of the submission - but was probably called something else. The rigour would have been, if not exactly the same, certainly as required by our "Lords and Masters" at that time to justify a bid for funding. That element has always been there. Anyway, we still digress - my fault!!!!
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Old 5th Jan 2021, 15:25
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
I don't know if this point has been raised before, but why now? Why after all these decades of the Cold War and the three decades since which has seen Russia, for example, become a far less significant military threat, to albeit becoming one again, why is Ireland concerned about fielding a standing force of Fighter aircraft now?

FB
I think the ‘why now’ is the realisation that there’s more to Defence than the land component! Things have , understandably, always been very focused on domestic security in the past which more or less meant Army units with small standing detachments of Allouete IIIs. The other main focus for decades was on wherever the deployed overseas Bn of the day was.

What you see now is the public attention starting on the issues surrounding pay, conditions and retention, and the discussion evolving from there.

You also now have a much wider online access to decision makers, which further socialises the idea ( I hate that term, but there you go...). As a last point, whereas previously politicians would have seen ‘there’s no votes in Defence’, there’s now an ex ARW commandant in the Dail.

TL/DR, lots of bits of different things mean nows a good time to at least bring it up.
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Old 5th Jan 2021, 17:05
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
I don't know if this point has been raised before, but why now? Why after all these decades of the Cold War and the three decades since which has seen Russia, for example, become a far less significant military threat, to albeit becoming one again, why is Ireland concerned about fielding a standing force of Fighter aircraft now?

FB

Ireland isn't, just it is a hobby horse for some. It has zero chance of happening.

There are quite a number of Irish politicians who will happily go to jail for damaging US aircraft at Shannon. Any US based aircraft would be targeted on a similar basis. There is no upside for the US here as US personnel shooting unarmed Irish protestors attacking USAF aircraft is a lose lose situation.

In 10 years time there will still be people pushing the idea but it still will not be happening.
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Old 5th Jan 2021, 20:09
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Declan and Racedo,

That explains, I suppose, why so many folk from the Republic end up in the UK armed forces. Despite claims to the contrary, I can see an independent Scotland ending up in a similar situation. What I do find interesting is the idea of home grown resentment at the presence of any USAF aircraft pitching up. What price the American love of having Irish ancestry then?

FB
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 00:47
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/n...rity-pp0rlkk0q

‘Not enough military pilots’ to maintain airborne security

The Department of Defence has been told that the number of pilots available in the Air Corps is below the “critical mass” needed for airborne security, new records show.

Eight Irish pilots are being trained with the US military in Alabama, as the Defence Forces warned that premature retirements from the Air Corps had reached a “critical level”.

A record released under a freedom of information request revealed that a business case prepared for the Department of Defence said the number of pilots available in the Air Corps had fallen below “the critical mass required to sustain the provision of airborne defence and security operations”.

The record — which was released with redactions for security reasons — warns that “immediate remedial action” was required to rebuild available manpower. It said that outsourced training would be crucial “to restore the provision of adequate airborne defence and security services”.

The defence forces and the Department of Defence declined to confirm how much the training was going to cost the taxpayer. However, internal records from the department give an estimate of €650,000 to €850,000 for the training of four pilots.

The business case said that the Air Corps had been hit by a wave of “premature voluntary retirements”, including the short-notice departure of one senior pilot. It said that there was a global shortage of pilots, and that these were being felt particularly “acutely” in military air forces. “The consequence of this is that there is very limited, if any, military pilot training capacity in external air terms,” it said.

It added that the Air Corps had looked at alternative training options in UK joint military and civilian flight schools, but that there was no availability due to “national shortages” there. The business case said that training for specific military skills such as formation flying, low-level flight operations, tactical flying, and air firing, meant that market options were limited.

The Air Corps had engaged with the military in the UK and the US “at a very senior level” to discuss training options. “Only the US has indicated that they have the capacity to deal with a military pilot training request,” the document read.

The business case provided further background on just how short-handed the Air Corps had become, with retirements leaving them at a “culmination point”. Staffing levels of experienced pilots, especially helicopter commanders, were below critical mass, which had a knock-on effect on training.

It added: “Following a research visit to the US Army at Fort Rucker, Alabama to assess the viability of helicopter training, the US have offered military pilot training capacity. The training aircraft being offered are similar to [our] aircraft in terms of size, performance, and training output; necessitating minimal ‘differences’ on return … while maintaining training standards and timelines.”

The defence forces also prepared a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats analysis on the move. It said that it would alleviate pressures on the Air Corps, and increase available resources. However, it added that the Air Corps would no longer have “direct and exclusive supervision” of trainees and that the costs involved were “unavoidable”.

Separately, Department of Defence records also warned of “organisational risk” if steps were not taken to manage the loss of experienced pilots.

A strategic review marked “confidential” stated: “Such a training surge, which is envisaged will last four years, would reduce the overall training pressures on the flying training school; shorten Air Corps cadetships to two years, qualify more pilot officers sooner, and mitigate training pressures risk.”

Asked for comment on the records, the defence forces said that they had nothing to add.
Makes sense considering they only have 6 (?) helos including 4 x AW139M and 2 x H135 latter used for training and other roles, so outsourcing training would make sense in this case Mother Rucker. Then again why they don’t use a commercial FTO or use likes of Babcock, PDG just as examples

Their recent purchase of 3 x Pilatus PC-12 and also ordering new Airbus Defence CN295 the other year ....modernisation wonder if any new RW assets also loom over the horizon.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/pres...-aircraft.html

Btw does anyone remember an espionage thriller written in the 80s with a Mig 23 on the front (forgot the title) but the plot was about Ireland overrun by (middle eastern) terrorists and it was not the IRA coming across the border.

cheers
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 04:09
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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I’d hope a bulking up of the RW fleet would happen in the next few years - the removal of the prohibition on overseas deployment of aircraft means that it’s possible to either support a deployed Bn directly with Irish assets, or send a small detachment as a stand-alone contribution. Plenty of UN missions that would bite your hand off for it!

That, however, cycles you right back into training requirements and personnel numbers...

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Old 6th Jan 2021, 07:36
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perhaps they can see this sort of issue coming to the front..........

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55552455An Irish fishing vessel has been blocked from entering waters around Rockall in the North Atlantic.

The Northern Celt, from County Donegal, was boarded by a Marine Scotland patrol boat on 4 January, Irish broadcaster RTÉ reports.

Its captain Adrian McClenaghan was told he can no longer fish within 12 nautical miles of the eroded volcano as a result of Brexit.

The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs said it is aware of the incident.

It said it has been in contact with UK and Scottish authorities.
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 09:45
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Longstanding issue that has been ignored by UK Govt for years to avoid creating a fuss over small fry. Will now be an interesting diplomatic issue for the UK and Eire govts.
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 10:52
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
Declan and Racedo,

That explains, I suppose, why so many folk from the Republic end up in the UK armed forces. Despite claims to the contrary, I can see an independent Scotland ending up in a similar situation. What I do find interesting is the idea of home grown resentment at the presence of any USAF aircraft pitching up. What price the American love of having Irish ancestry then?

FB
Hmmmm......if my extended family in the U.S. is anything to go by..........I think they'd be prepared to pay the "premium". Can't understand it myself.......they're no more Irish than I am.

Last edited by mopardave; 6th Jan 2021 at 10:53. Reason: spelling
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Old 13th Feb 2021, 11:53
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Mother Rucker graduates

First two lads to earn their US Army aviator badge




cheers
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 17:45
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Ireland considers the purchase of air combat interceptors ? Alert 5

Ireland considers the purchase of air combat interceptors

The Irish Defence Forces have published its Equipment Development Plan 2020-24 document and the military is considering the purchase of air combat interceptors. The program is still at pre-planning stage and the consideration will be dependent on additional funding.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...raft-1.4289801
Maybe this might sway the Tsioach with the Russians intending to conducting firing exercises off Cork in a fortnight

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5...2cbf937d45a96c

cheers


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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 17:53
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Possibly it might at least prompt a redraft over the weekend of the final Commission on Defence Forces report!

Last edited by Declan275; 26th Mar 2022 at 10:08.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 22:03
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I hear there are some F16s going spare in Norway.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 23:21
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Here's Sean and Eric on duty:


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