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Bomber Harris a 'colonial warmonger'

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Bomber Harris a 'colonial warmonger'

Old 1st Jul 2020, 06:21
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Things are always clearer with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. There is considerable evidence that the strategic bombing campaign was not an efficient use of resources - but few knew or even suspected that during the war.
Revisionist history is just that - applying modern standard to historical events gives a distorted view of what happened and why. Similar revisionist history has been applied to the US dropping the A-bombs on Japan ('Japan wasn't a threat, they were about to surrender anyway, etc.'). Given that my dad was training for the invasion of Japan when the dropped the bombs - he was going to be a platoon leader on the second wave of the initial landings and had been told to expect 80% casualties - I remain unconvinced that we didn't need to drop the bombs. In fact a pretty good argument can be made that dropping the bombs and preventing the need for an invasion of the mainland saved move lives - both Japanese and Americans - than any single act in history.
Precisely, to many fall into a hindsight trap failing to understand the wing of bombers back then, is the single F-15E of today. You can't go back and do-over that war with todays tech. We have F-15Es because we learned from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm. And because of F-15Es and the like, you don't need the Nukes of today, we hope.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 20:02
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vortex Hoop View Post
Comparing Bomber Harris in an argument about historical revisionism to Hitler and Stalin is pretty distasteful.
Nope because ALL are dead, all had a major part in WW2 and all have been subject to revisionism with some whose character has been amended because of history because today people wishes to judge people differently.

My use of Adolf and Josef was to show that picking selective areas and a bucket of whitewash can even make the vilest dictator appear "reasonable".

It still doesn’t change the fact that area bombing was the right thing to do, and it worked.
As a weapon of terrorising the population in did, as a means of destroying German war industry it is questionable.

ISTR a Harris quote: “They called us criminals, but what would they have said of us had we lost?”
He would have been classified as a War criminal and executed after a speedy trial, mind you doubt the trial bit.

I do not judge him on today, I judge him on WW2, he was appropriate for the time but soon as it is over you need military people like this removed from any type of power.
They understand war BUT do not understand peace.

Gen George Patton / Douglas McArthur are others who understood war but not peace.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 20:12
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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It is always easier with hindsight!

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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 08:59
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
My use of Adolf and Josef was to show that picking selective areas and a bucket of whitewash can even make the vilest dictator appear "reasonable.

He would have been classified as a War criminal and executed after a speedy trial, mind you doubt the trial bit.
Nope. It is still distasteful, insulting to British people and morally wrong to draw false equivalence between Bomber Harris (military commander and pilot) and the 2 worst dictators in history (both up there with Chairman Mao for murdering countless millions). That is your agenda, dressed up to look like smart historical analysis.

And the Germans would have lined up MANY miltary personnel and shot them for merely defending against an invasion had they succeeded. When we call someone a 'war criminal', it means something.
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 12:05
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Bomber Harris, like Churchill, was a warmonger. They were both EXACTLY what was required at the time, we were at war in a fight for the very survival of our country and way of life. Thank goodness we had leaders who were prepared to prosecute that war to the fullest extent possible.
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 15:17
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Well said Max Angle, I agree with you completely!
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 15:55
  #187 (permalink)  

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Add a plus-one Max Angle. Some people don't realise you can't half-win a total war. Of course Harris had his faults, but.."let him who is without sin cast the first stone"
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 19:19
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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and another
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 23:13
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It will be interesting to see who's statues will replace those removed, by due process of course?

FB
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 23:26
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy View Post
It will be interesting to see who's statues will replace those removed, by due process of course?

FB
Peace lovers like Stalin, Mao, and Marx.
Consistency is not a hallmark of the woke crowd, just the narrative...
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 15:35
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Idi Amin VC ?
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 14:21
  #192 (permalink)  
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Harris was never a warmonger. A warmonger encourages and instigates. Harris retaliated.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 14:57
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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PN

Agree totally: Max Angle's choice of "warmonger" was utterly unwarranted.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 20:00
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vortex Hoop View Post
Nope. It is still distasteful, insulting to British people and morally wrong to draw false equivalence between Bomber Harris (military commander and pilot) and the 2 worst dictators in history (both up there with Chairman Mao for murdering countless millions). That is your agenda, dressed up to look like smart historical analysis.
Majority of people care less and now little or nothing of WW2. Many young people today in UK struggle to tell when it happened.


And the Germans would have lined up MANY miltary personnel and shot them for merely defending against an invasion had they succeeded. When we call someone a 'war criminal', it means something.
All sides committed atrocities before in Nazi's case, during and in the allies case as victors after, in handing thousands back to Soviet side known full well gulags and execution would follow.

Allies happily gave free passage to War criminals when it suited their interests to do so................. Werner VonBraun and his cohorts is just one example. Allies also quite happy to recruit thousands of Ukainians to join US army and train them for 1946 Invasion of Japan, Hiroshima / Nagasaki put paid to that so many got a free pass to settle in Empire or US.

There is no morality in war.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 20:48
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Majority of people care less and now little or nothing of WW2. Many young people today in UK struggle to tell when it happened.
That's simply an indictment of how crappy our schools are doing these days. I don't know about your side of the pond, but over here we've more than doubled the amount of spending/student compared with when I was in school (in constant dollars) and yet the outcome has gotten progressively worse. So of course the answer is we need to spend more money on education..

Originally Posted by racedo View Post
There is no morality in war.
Perhaps, but there is still a rather large difference between dropping bombs on enemy civilian targets and carefully planned, executed and ruthless genocide of millions of people.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 21:47
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Written inside the cover of my 'War Studies' folder at RAFC Cranwell by a previous owner:-
" The first principle of warfare: It is not the the taking part that counts, but..."
Too many detractors of Harris seem to not appreciate this subtle, but profound comment.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 07:59
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cynicalint View Post
" The first principle of warfare: It is not the the taking part that counts, but..."
Absolutely cl, to which I'd add not only 'winning', but 'winning as soon as possible'. The military know enough about war to know that it is brutal and often unpredictable. In contrast the Hampstead Thinkers see it as a vehicle for their own set of do's and don'ts, most of which if observed would end up in defeat.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 14:56
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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No morality? Is it immoral to defend one's homeland and freedom, or to do so with allies for the same purpose? It was a fight to the death; partial measures not appropriate or effective. I hate war and I hate the reasons we need to go to war, but sometimes it is necessary, perhaps for failures of previous omission. A terrible thing and we are all glad it's over. But of course, even now we live in a dangerous and violent world.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 04:20
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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Outrage

Now we have Saudi Arabia with its ultra modern air force ( supplied by?) Bombing the cr...p out of the Yemen and not much being done to stop civilians being killed other than a few feeble newspaper articles.
Hands up those who remember the conflict in the late sixties when the british were putting down an uprising in the same part of the world?No bad publicity then!
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 07:07
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oldpax View Post
Now we have Saudi Arabia with its ultra modern air force ( supplied by?) Bombing the cr...p out of the Yemen and not much being done to stop civilians being killed other than a few feeble newspaper articles.
Hands up those who remember the conflict in the late sixties when the british were putting down an uprising in the same part of the world?No bad publicity then!
I agree with you about Saudi, but I spent two years stationed in Aden in the sixties. You are talking a load of rubbish, it was a defensive withdrawal spread over quite a long time and now they wish we were back!

Last edited by brakedwell; 6th Jul 2020 at 07:32.
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