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Military Mobilization into Washington DC?

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Military Mobilization into Washington DC?

Old 5th Jun 2020, 11:49
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
Vortex Hoop,

Are you sure you are not getting muddled up wtih US footage? I was at the demonstration at the weekend which was peaceful and the chat and banter with the Police was friendly, and they were generally supportive. I was not on the demonstration on Wed but did just happen to be walking up Whitehall when a number of demonstrators who were gathered outside the gates to Downing Street were running down Whitehall toward Parliament Square. There were not thousands of them, they were NOT rioting, and at no time did I get any sense that they would. More than a few gathered at the Cenotaph for staged photos but they didn't desecrate it, and a lot of the protestors called them out and told them to leave it alone, which eventually they did.
I am very sure I am not confused. The two incidents below were in Central London on Wednesday: Police attacked in Whitehall and Oz news crew attacked possibly near Admiralty Arch. Further incidents appearing as I type. You may have been on a different demo to the one I saw online. The police seem to be too afraid to act to contain and arrest these rioters, for fear of selective news editing by the mob.

Michael Heaver ⁦‪@Michael_Heaver‬⁩
Police officers abused and one is then physically attacked and knocked over in London today.

pic.twitter.com/dAUfrWqrWb


The Today Show ⁦‪@TheTodayShow‬⁩
#BREAKING: Nine News Europe correspondent Ben Avery has been forced to abandon his live coverage as protestors clash with police in London. #9Todaypic.twitter.com/xE9Qhf8CME



l
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 12:16
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Me thinks many of you watch way too much CNN. The U.S. Left is behind most of the violence, their goal is chaos and blaming Trump. There were similar riots during Obama’s administration and nobody blamed him, but these riots are caused by Trump.? The left wing/ progressives despise Trump because he highlights their weakness every day..
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 15:08
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Originally Posted by towrope
That the military has gone against the people was dreaded but not unexpected under this administration
Please explain what you mean by that. I will say to you that the people in the military have not 'gone against the people' - and really, what do you mean by that?
The people whose stores and homes are destroyed by looters are also, the People. Do you care about them? They matter. They are caught up in a tsunami of fear and violence also, through no fault of their own.
I doubt you'll find anyone serving who objects to the protests against abuse of power (the George Floyd case among others) and you'll find very few, or none, who believe that a riot solves anything.
When the military gets called in to do that Support For Civil Authority thing, it is already a crap situation to start with.
That the various police departments need to work on and improve their approach to Protect and Serve seems to be clear.

For Chiefttp: that probably fits better into a discussion on Jet Blast.
For VortexHoop: that post you linked to is a bit disturbing. In the middle there you offered a thought that is chilling (to me).
The police seem to be too afraid to act to contain and arrest these rioters, for fear of selective news editing by the mob.
They can't do their job because of fear of looking bad. I completely get what's going on, with the two seconds of video tells the whole story approach by so much of the world's media. What's the remedy to that?
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 15:17
  #84 (permalink)  
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Who are the folks in riot gear trying to take back the streets in DC?


Getty Images Kasos Katopodis

The motley assortment of police currently occupying Washington, D.C., is a window into the vast, complicated, obscure world of federal law enforcement.
Then there are the officers who can be spotted across Northern Virginia in white marked patrol vehicles labeled only as "United States Police" the purposefully vague public name given to what is formally known as the CIA’s Security Protective Services, who provide security to the CIA and the Office of Director of National Intelligence. They carry weapons, but have limited law enforcement authority. (As one agent once told me, only half-joking, “We can’t arrest you, but we can kill you.”)


A good TL;DR article from Garrett Graff:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 15:33
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
I was against the creation of DHS when it happened, and I think my objections weren't strong enough. (Though on the bright side, Coast Guard seeing a bit better treatment at budget time once they moved out from under DoT).
Great article, great link. Thanks. I wonder how many of these police agencies have air assets? Three of the pilots who served under (Navy, Marines) me back in the 00's ended up going to DEA, and I think all three were headed to flying assignments.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 17:03
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Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind “colour coding” kids toys pointless?
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 22:23
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind ďcolour codingĒ kids toys pointless?
Toy guns need to be identifiable as such, this is usually by having some level of fluro coloured plastic. Either the muzzle or the whole toy. Doesn't help that training uses imitation firearms that are all in red or blue or other colours.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 22:36
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
Please explain what you mean by that. I will say to you that the people in the military have not 'gone against the people' - and really, what do you mean by that?
The people whose stores and homes are destroyed by looters are also, the People. Do you care about them? They matter. They are caught up in a tsunami of fear and violence also, through no fault of their own.
I doubt you'll find anyone serving who objects to the protests against abuse of power (the George Floyd case among others) and you'll find very few, or none, who believe that a riot solves anything.
When the military gets called in to do that Support For Civil Authority thing, it is already a crap situation to start with.
That the various police departments need to work on and improve their approach to Protect and Serve seems to be clear.

For Chiefttp: that probably fits better into a discussion on Jet Blast.
For VortexHoop: that post you linked to is a bit disturbing. In the middle there you offered a thought that is chilling (to me).
They can't do their job because of fear of looking bad. I completely get what's going on, with the two seconds of video tells the whole story approach by so much of the world's media. What's the remedy to that?
As the son and brother of police officers (UK) it's my experience that the actual officers are never going to win. They won't be supported by the seniors and they are villified every day. There are a minority of officers who show very poor conduct, as in the case of GF, and also in the Aubery case, although ex officer. These people should be made examples of as they are in positions of authority and must operate to a higher level than the public to set the example. In no way does this mean all officers are out to brutalise the public.

I see that a whole 57 man unit has quit public order duties in NYC because of what's happenning to 2 of their number. I would suggest more units do the same. In the UK, public order duty is voluntary (well 'voluntary') still, as far as I'm aware. Whilst the police operate by public consent, it is a voluntary occupation. One way to stop Police brutality is to remove the Police - it seems the police no longer have the public consent in some areas.

Conversely, I'd quite like to see everyone do 2 years in the Police, or Fire or Ambulance services, so they can see what the job is really about. Maybe pay that time served back with UBI or further education opportunities.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 04:22
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Me thinks many of you watch way too much CNN. The U.S. Left is behind most of the violence, their goal is chaos and blaming Trump. There were similar riots during Obamaís administration and nobody blamed him, but these riots are caused by Trump.? The left wing/ progressives despise Trump because he highlights their weakness every day..
If not trump, then who?


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032

Last edited by Check Airman; 6th Jun 2020 at 06:03.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 08:33
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"Our country is totally fractured and, with our weak leadership in Washington, you can expect Ferguson type riots and looting in other places"

Well he said it not me ​​​​​​​
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 11:22
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
Yeah, our idea of democracy is based on it working from the bottom up, not from the top down.
That is on purpose.
The overall intent is that we, as a matter of systems design, want to avoid too much power being in too few hands, unlike Europe and the autocratic habits they developed over about 20 centuries.

Our founders didn't arrive at their ideas by accident. They took a lot of ideas that arose from the Enlightenment and tried to put a few of them into practice. It's called the Great American Experiment in Self Government for a good reason. And yes, we are still in a petri dish. Seen from the Chinese or European perspective, a couple of centuries or so isn't a pie that is for sure fully baked. Might take a bit longer in the oven, as it were. Still baking, maybe waiting for the crust to turn that lovely golden brown.

With that design principle come a variety of inefficiencies.
That also is on purpose.
This means, as you observe form that article, it's a bit of a mess in detail but the overall framework remains intact. We survived a bloody civil war. And some progress was made. We lived through the upheaval of the 60's and 70's, learned, made a bit of progress.
Here we are again, doing something similar but different. And it may be painful, but in the longer term I am optimistic that a bit more progress can be made.
Again, that is on purpose.
Our Constitution is the political version of the model of continuous improvement that Deming claims to have uncovered in the 1950's. (I like his work, but he was a few centuries late to be original).
Being political, which means that the messy human element is involved, it's somewhat less than a perfect lab experiment.

That is by design.

The reasoning behind that design is an attempt - and for that matter an experiment - in creating a system that prevents too much power being in too few hands. The underlying reason for that viewpoint is about 2000 years of European history before our nation's founding, from which our founders learned.

The experiment remains an ongoing process. That too is by designer intent.
So far so good, but it can for sure get messy at times.

I have hopes for the experiment to proceed into the future for a while. If it ever ends, and when it ever ends, the rest of you will wish it hadn't.
A reasonable synopsis but the Founding Fathers maybe gave Human Nature or just Humans too much credit for being able to act as reasonable people and not seeking personal fiefdoms and abusing power or maybe they did it to limit it.

The deference to someone in Uniform from a police department is not something I have seen in other countries, even when the police dept is totally corrupt / incompetent.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 11:28
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He’s talking about the Democrats and the left in general. You can’t blame Trump for what a bad Minneapolis cop did to a suspect. Did anyone Blame Obama for Ferguson? Give us all a break. If a person wants to limit his exposure to bad cops, don’t commit crimes. By being a law abiding citizen, your exposure to the police is minimized drastically. BTW the City of Minneapolis Is overwhelmingly run by Democrats, so why are they blaming Trump? TDS or CNN syndrome.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 11:41
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Me thinks many of you watch way too much CNN. The U.S. Left is behind most of the violence, their goal is chaos and blaming Trump. There were similar riots during Obamaís administration and nobody blamed him, but these riots are caused by Trump.? The left wing/ progressives despise Trump because he highlights their weakness every day..
Police force responsible for killing George Floyd are under control of Minneapolis City Council which is under control of 1 party. Maybe if they had done their job then the officer concerned with his history would still be wearing a Uniform but as a Mall cop only.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:09
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If a person wants to limit his exposure to bad cops, don’t commit crimes.
AFAIK, he was "accused/suspected" of trying to pass a forged $20 bill. No crime committed at that stage.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 13:55
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Heís talking about the Democrats and the left in general. You canít blame Trump for what a bad Minneapolis cop did to a suspect. Did anyone Blame Obama for Ferguson? Give us all a break. If a person wants to limit his exposure to bad cops, donít commit crimes. By being a law abiding citizen, your exposure to the police is minimized drastically. BTW the City of Minneapolis Is overwhelmingly run by Democrats, so why are they blaming Trump? TDS or CNN syndrome.
Yes, actually. One person did.

If, as you say, ďheís talking about the democrats and the left in generalĒ, he specifically noted weak leadership in Washington, so itís pretty clear he wasnít talking about the local government in Ferguson.

And the city of MSP isnít blaming trump. Former Trump blamed future Trump. (as an aside, this is so crazy, Iím not even sure what tense to use in that last sentence)

Last edited by Check Airman; 6th Jun 2020 at 18:06.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 14:31
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Since the toys can be painted over to make them more realistic- as children would undoubtedly like - that is a dubious recognition factor. It's going a bit far, but the criminals could equally paint their genuine weapons with fluo colours to fool the cops.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 14:55
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Originally Posted by Herod
AFAIK, he was "accused/suspected" of trying to pass a forged $20 bill. No crime committed at that stage.
A crime had been committed in the attempted passing of forged bills.

What had not yet been proven was Mr Floyd was guilty of this, he was with a number of people suspected but that doesn't make him guility. He alledgy worked at same establishment as police officer but not establised that they knew each other, my guess was they did or were aware of each other. I suspect police officer was aware more likely than civilian because once a cop, always a cop.

Cop should not have been on the force, his history alone should have got him a new career but sometimes everybody wants a nice clean polite police officer while decrying those who meet the scum head on in dishing out what the scum dish out.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:07
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind “colour coding” kids toys pointless?
I do not know the current state of play on that. Over the past few decades, there are now and again reported cases of toys guns being pointed at cops and it ends in tears.

Not sure if there's a statue on that, and I'll see if ATF might have a law. (We have so many laws in this country I wonder if we aren't all criminals...)
EDIT: a quick check of ATF.gov didn't find an ATF reg on that, but who knows what laws states have? I too recall hearing something like that years ago, but I can' confirm or deny as I just don't know.

I think SASless might now from his days in LE, but he seems to have left us for the time being.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 22:21
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By being a law abiding citizen, your exposure to the police is minimized drastically.
If you're white. Makes less difference if you're not. Therein lies the rub.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 23:35
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Originally Posted by beardy
If you're white. Makes less difference if you're not. Therein lies the rub.
Rubbish. Thatís the propaganda pushed out by the US rioters and lapped up by the UK rioters. White people are regularly shot by the police over there. It just doesnít make the news as much.
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