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Sentinel R1 to be scrapped next year due to ‘obsolescence’ say MoD

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Sentinel R1 to be scrapped next year due to ‘obsolescence’ say MoD

Old 26th May 2020, 10:44
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Sentinel R1 to be scrapped next year due to ‘obsolescence’ say MoD

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sent...cence-say-mod/


The Ministry of Defence claim that the aircraft is “now increasingly obsolescent and will face increasing reliability issues as time progresses” and will still leave service in March 2021, as originally planned.

Jeremy Quin, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, stated that Sentinel was introduced in 2008 in the knowledge that a significant equipment upgrade would be required in the mid 2010s.

“The Sentinel R1 has been operationally deployed in support of a number of operations. Some operations are considered to be both conventional and counter-insurgency; for example operations in Afghanistan (Op HERRICK) and Iraq (Op SHADER). It has also been deployed on operations in Libya (Op ELLAMY), Nigeria (Op TURUS) and Mali (Op NEWCOMBE), all considered conventional operations.

Sentinel was introduced in 2008 in the knowledge that a significant equipment upgrade would be required in the mid 2010’s. The Defence Review in 2010 cancelled this expected upgrade bringing forward the likely out of service date. The SDSR 2015 determined that Sentinel should be retained for a further period and set a new out of service date of March 2021. While some work was conducted on the on-board equipment this fell well short of a full system upgrade.
The radar and mission system are now increasingly obsolescent and will face increasing reliability issues as time progresses. Retaining the capability would have required significant upgrade expenditure and the March 2021 out of service date has been retained.


No identical capability is operated by the UK (though similar capabilities exist in the NATO inventory). The UK does however have a number of other intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities that collect different types of intelligence information, including long-range strategic assets (Sentry, Rivet Joint and Poseidon) and shorter-range more tactically-focused assets (including Shadow, Reaper and Watchkeeper).”
The aircraft, described on the Royal Air Force website as “the most advanced long-range, airborne-surveillance system of its kind in the world”, provides long-range, wide-area battlefield surveillance, delivering intelligence and target tracking information to British forces.The aircraft has been operationally deployed in support of operations in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali, and is currently deployed in support of British and Coalition operations in Iraq and Syria.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 27th May 2020 at 00:11. Reason: Add quote
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Old 26th May 2020, 11:14
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P-8 Poseidon probably replaces it

https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-de...-p-8a-poseidon

cheers
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Old 26th May 2020, 11:59
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I think the word ‘probably’ would more accurately be replaceable with ‘could possibly’. Subject to the US allowing the UK into another highly classified technical capability (not helped by the Hauawii deal) and another chunk of money that defence would have to find in the current climate. My guess is that it’s very unlikely although quite a decent RUSI article anyway.
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Old 26th May 2020, 13:16
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How many stays of execution has it had already? One, two or is it three?
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Old 26th May 2020, 13:46
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Was that money well spent or not ?
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Old 26th May 2020, 14:20
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I found this quite amusing only three scant years ago

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...l-radar-planes
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Old 26th May 2020, 14:27
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Isn't that the kind of mission that would gradually migrate to UAV? Triton anyone?
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Old 26th May 2020, 14:44
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"Smart Procurement" was the latest snappy catch phrase in use as I was departing Bristol's premier centre of excellence for pissing away tax-payers money. Obviously that never caught on.
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Old 26th May 2020, 14:58
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Could RAF eke some value from the aircraft by removing the electronics and converting them back to a passenger/transport role, maybe replacing some of 32 Sqn's 146s? Or will all the extra bits bolted on have compromised fatigue life too much?

Originally Posted by Party Animal
I think the word ‘probably’ would more accurately be replaceable with ‘could possibly’. Subject to the US allowing the UK into another highly classified technical capability (not helped by the Hauawii deal) and another chunk of money that defence would have to find in the current climate.
Boeing's lobbyists would probably create significant pressure to excuse any such issues since it gives them an opportunity to ship something which won't spend years in adjacent parking lots, and it would at least have some commonality with the existing P-8 MPAs. And as for the money, with COVID bloating borrowing all over the world, what better time to splash a little more red ink?
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:24
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Originally Posted by Two's in
"Smart Procurement" was the latest snappy catch phrase in use as I was departing Bristol's premier centre of excellence for pissing away tax-payers money. Obviously that never caught on.
Indeed. I recall us being dragged into the main lecture theatre to hear a talk by the 3 Star Deputy CE and hangers-on about 'faster, cheaper, better' and how they were going to develop a way of achieving it. He set out all the things they were looking at, claiming most were 'hard targets' and there was no realistic way of achieving them quickly, so concentrate on a few 'quick wins' to begin with.

It was pointed out to him that his hard targets were routinely met with minimal fuss if one simply implemented a mandated Def Stan. And if he cared to study the major projects that were successful, he'd see a correlation. And on the disasters, like Nimrod and Chinook Mk3, he wouldn't. He turned his back and walked away.
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:11
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RIP-ASTOR

Bloody thing! It is exactly what we needed in the late 70's for BAOR. The concept of a broad area radar ONLY asset is so dated.
It could be used to cue other assets onto a possible
target for detailed analysis.
(If Sentinel & Watchkeeper could be made to work). But on its own it was always limited in it's ability.
It was kept alive by an effective Int Corps publicity machine and the mantra of 'Jointery'.

Did they ever find those missing Algerian Schoolgirls with it?

It would have been interesting to see the jet fitted with the ex Canberra RADIOS sensor.
But that was never going to happen. The weight issue alone was always a limiting factor with the Sentinel too. .. ...
We will be better off with Wedgtail.
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:25
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HAS59,

The role of Wedgetail is completely and totally different from the role of Sentinel. You might as well say we will be better of with Grob Tutors!


And for all those pushing the P-8A as an alternative to Sentinel, the RAF have already formally declared that this will not happen as there are nowhere near enough of them and they will be 100% focussed on the Maritime role.

So we will withdraw the capability unreplaced and suffer yet another Tory capability "window" or gap.
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:23
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Originally Posted by tucumseh
Indeed. I recall us being dragged into the main lecture theatre to hear a talk by the 3 Star Deputy CE and hangers-on about 'faster, cheaper, better' and how they were going to develop a way of achieving it.
Tuc, I recall a similar "town hall" meeting led by your favourite CDP, where he stated that he saw no place for technical staff in his department. That sort of expertise could all be hired in. That worked well, didn't it?
Still, glad all that's behind me.
Hope you are keeping well.
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:58
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Ahh Sentinel - the first and only RAF aircraft to be fitted with but not for.
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Old 26th May 2020, 22:17
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On capability gaps, the MQ-9 Reaper and the MQ-9B Protector can offer both Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI) with its Lynx multimode radar. Here is some info: https://www.ga-asi.com/lynx-multi-mode-radar

Now the Lynx is not as powerful as the Sentinel’s radar, but there are many more Protectors on order than we have Sentinels - so in this case quantity gives a quality better than before. Further the fidelity of the data from Protector is superior as it is closer to the area being surveilled. It can also deliver product beyond line of sight - indeed from anywhere on the planet with the right satellite coverage and bandwidth (which there is).



So the RAF retains a SAR/GMTI capability with the 20+ Protectors on order. So all is not lost when it comes to capability - the Reapers already being flown offer that capability now, but in smaller numbers.
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Old 26th May 2020, 22:47
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Seems like they've found a hanagar for the Reds!
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Old 27th May 2020, 04:07
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Originally Posted by Cpt_Pugwash
Tuc, I recall a similar "town hall" meeting led by your favourite CDP, where he stated that he saw no place for technical staff in his department. That sort of expertise could all be hired in. That worked well, didn't it?
Still, glad all that's behind me.
Hope you are keeping well.
Thank you. Despite an apparent shift in Government policy this week, I have refrained from exposing myself to the locals.

Yes, I think that was 1997. Having uprooted everyone to the dreaded AbbeyWood, he announced 600 engineering jobs would go. A few years later an old colleague complained to me that he'd inherited an Integrated Project Team where 70% of the staff were costing him around £3k a day each via an agency.

On this Sentinel issue, and to be fair, the policy was (is?) that one cannot proceed unless there is assurance that the kit can be supported for 15 years. The problem is, that clock can start running 10 years before ISD, especially on avionics.

The other issue is 'five years useful life'. The piecemeal way in which Sentinel seems to have been extended for a year or two at a time militates against receiving any proper funding, as it reduces in each of the last five years of life anyway. If you slip the OSD a year, that just means you have six years of reduced funding, not five. Such a practice is, in effect, planned obsolesecence; as well as a stealth cut in the defence budget.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:07
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'So we will withdraw the capability unreplaced and suffer yet another Tory capability "window" or gap.'

Odd comment, at least in recent history. Having worked in Cap at the fag end of Brown's awful regime, I can attest to the utter lack of reality that Labour apparatchiks (and simpering politically-friendly CS) worked in. Kit was ordered for red-top headlines with absolutely no rational plan for how it was to be funded, procured and supported (I was working on the proposed new buy of 24 CH-47s at the time). We accepted that, whoever won the 2010 GE, much of what we were doing would be undone. It was simply not affordable. Most on the second floor were looking at it each other wondering who, if anybody, senior enough had the minerals to tell the Govt that it was, effectively, a naked emperor. Brown's bunker mentality refused engagement in the real world. He happily eschewed Austerity post the crash and continued Defence Largesse in the vain hope he'd scrape through the looming election (especially trying to buttress Scotland against the SNP). His decision to not invoke austerity, and to keep spending, between 2008-10 made the subsequent austerity (and associated SDSR10) much worse. The 'Tory capability holidays' in SDSR 10 were as a direct result of the dire state of the national finances and the fantasy which was the Defence EP at the time. It's not all the politicos fault, of course. The Service chiefs happily took lumps out of each other to preserve turf, funding, prestige and sacred cows……SDR15 looked at the progress made and then started to 'buy back' capabilities that had been 'snoozed' as affordability improved. Sentinel has always been on borrowed time. There are significant long terms savings to remove a type from the inventory, and the potential savings of P8/E7 commonality will help significantly, especially if a modest additional buy of P8s (4-6) were sanctioned (the serial numbers are allotted) and it would ease the RAF's concerns regarding over-stretching the force. Additionally, Protector will help, as will a new generation of Air Launched Effectors and other UAV tech, the potential of which is probably being studied by the likes of 216 Sqn….Just my 2p. Hopefully the boys and girls on V (AC) will continue to dig out until OSD.
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Old 27th May 2020, 09:38
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Shame you can only have Aircrew on board that drink G&Ts with slimline tonic and discard their top bun when eating a burger...
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Old 27th May 2020, 10:18
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SAR-MTI + EO/IT Cross-cueing!

Thanks, pr00ne, I realise that the roles of Wedgetail are indeed different to the role of Sentinel.
When I said we’d be better off with Wedgetail, that’s what I meant. It’s a better use of money and people.
The ELINT capability it will provide is a decent target cueing facility, especially when used alongside other assets.

The experience gained on Sentinel will be useful to the operators of the General Atomics Lynx radar on the Protector RPV’s.
I am grateful to Lima Juliet for mentioning, indeed demonstrating, the SAR-MTI capability of the Protector,
I wasn’t sure how much of this information is already ‘out there.’

The one- foot resolution SAR image is simply astonishing,
and with the ability to cross-cue an EO/IR sensor it surpasses everything that Sentinel tried to achieve.
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