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Canadian Forces Snowbirds CT-114 down in British Columbia

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Canadian Forces Snowbirds CT-114 down in British Columbia

Old 18th May 2020, 07:48
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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If you watch the video on [email protected] don't read the comments, they'll boil your eyeballs.
Utmost sympathy for those involved but also for the little girl watching, that'll stay with her.
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:15
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Clearly a spin from a low speed turn, (turnback?) you can see in the video the beginning of the autorotation.

So far as ejection height is concerned, on a Martin Baker seat , non zero zero, you needed, as. a rule of thumb, a minimum height of 10 percent of your rate of descent to compensate for the seat’s rate of descent at the moment. of ejection.

If, repeat if, indeed, it was a turnback following engine failure it shows the reason, certainly when I was a QFI why lowlevel turnback practice was stopped. Ie, if it does not work out, you may well be faced with a low level ejection in a descending aircraft,ie outside the seat’s performance envelope.

Very sad.

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 18th May 2020 at 08:34.
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:15
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Some similarities with the recent Reds crash at Valley, albeit that was a simulated engine failure as I recall.

A very sad day - thoughts and prayers to all touched by this tragedy
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:47
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Firstly, a tragic accident and all condolences.

Then thoughts turn to aerobatic teams flying obsolescent / largely retired types - pretty common ? Reds are still using legacy Hawks, Blue Angels legacy F18's, Snowbirds....
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:17
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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negative on the command eject. side by side seating. yet another brutal chapter for the RCAF this year. Jenn was the PAO for the CF-18 demo team a bunch of years back. Really nice girl.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I was taught you never attempt a turnback from an engine failure after takeoff. Have things changed?
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:48
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I would say that throwaway lines like that arent really helpful - lets be honest, investigators havent done their thing yet and you cant know that was what the pilot was doing. and....it is not really true, it would depend on the training, aircraft performance, etc. I have flown for various air forces, about 3/4 of which train and plan for turnbacks depending on the circumstance. there are times where they make sense, and times where they dont.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:53
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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If you ain't got the smash......

.you are going to crash. Speaking as a low-level jet aerobaticist, what were he thinking?....pulling up after take-off (low energy) into a barrel roll and compounding that by losing the roll-rate at the top, just as the picture out the front changed to dire (due to the high terrain they were rolling towards).
I often did some silly things (uncoord garbage rolls at 300ft agl - until I learnt the secret script and thereafter did it confidently), but nothing ever that stupid? You don't even need to hit the buffet to get that eject imperative. But then again, I did leave the ventral speedbrake out during a pitch-up tailslide topping at 3000ft, tried to full-fwd stick recover the vertical, and entered three full turns of an an inverted spin after it fell on its back, so I guess we are all guilty at times of stoopid and thoughtless. During the90 nose-down recovery on that buzz, buffet, judder evolution, I can still see (in my nightmares) whole hordes of spectators below running radially outwards.
Never letting things develop is the secret sauce. Not starting without sufficient smash is the secret saviour. Low and slow or high, slow and face-fulla dirt is formulaically fatal.
Not trying to be smart. I was essentially self-taught.... and soon learnt to stop trying too hard or being in anyway adventurous. An earnest discussion with my CO (who saw that very proximal garbage roll) also helped re-orient my bravado. He was talking to the CAS in front of the O's Mess when he saw the CAS expression change to horror - as he viewed me in the distance over the CO's shoulder. As I said later, on his carpet, "no sweat boss, I'm on top of it now. There's a bit of a trick to it.".
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:54
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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My deepest sympathies to all those touched by this crash.

For now I'm not going to comment on how the aircraft arrived in the position it did. I do however find myself surprised by the video of the ejection. I am very familiar with MB seats and the sequencing thereof but know very little about the seats fitted to the CT 114.

The large smoke plumes and lack of an early seat separation were a surprise to me. I would have expected seats of that vintage to use sequenced charges (or even a single charge) as they moved up the rails and for an immediate drogue deployment with separation occurring as soon as tumbling stopped.

Difficult to accurately assess height and ROD but it looked like a better result should have been obtained.

So the question is, did the seats work as specified? In which case they are probably not suitable for use in the "high risk" environment of a formation display team.

Several have commented on the Snowbirds use of what is essentially a vintage jet for their displays. I am not against that providing the risks are minimised. Lets face it the alternative would probably be a Harvard 2 or disbandment. I wonder if the fitment of something like an MB Mk 8 seat has ever been considered for the Snowbirds CT 114. I know it is available as a retrofit for the T37 which also has (albeit different) a Weber seat.

Perhaps the conversation was along the lines of " we struggle to justify the costs of the Snowbirds as it is, if you insist the current seats are unsafe we will just can the team".

Whatever happens as a result of this accident I hope the Snowbirds continue. I'd love it to be in the CT 114 but I think it will cost money. Hopefully that money can be found.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:54
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wanderinwilco View Post
I was taught you never attempt a turnback from an engine failure after takeoff. Have things changed?
Well, no. But taking off from runway 09, an ejection straight ahead would have sent the jet to downtown Kamloops. Lots of houses everywhere. I can understand that the pilot was looking for an alternate option and trying to steer the jet away from the inhabited areas.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:23
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WeeWinkyWilly View Post
.you are going to crash. Speaking as a low-level jet aerobaticist, what were he thinking?....pulling up after take-off (low energy) into a barrel roll and compounding that by losing the roll-rate at the top, just as the picture out the front changed to dire (due to the high terrain they were rolling towards).
I often did some silly things (uncoord garbage rolls at 300ft agl - until I learnt the secret script and thereafter did it confidently), but nothing ever that stupid? You don't even need to hit the buffet to get that eject imperative. But then again, I did leave the ventral speedbrake out during a pitch-up tailslide topping at 3000ft, tried to full-fwd stick recover the vertical, and entered three full turns of an an inverted spin after it fell on its back, so I guess we are all guilty at times of stoopid and thoughtless. During the90 nose-down recovery on that buzz, buffet, judder evolution, I can still see (in my nightmares) whole hordes of spectators below running radially outwards.
Never letting things develop is the secret sauce. Not starting without sufficient smash is the secret saviour. Low and slow or high, slow and face-fulla dirt is formulaically fatal.
Not trying to be smart. I was essentially self-taught.... and soon learnt to stop trying too hard or being in anyway adventurous. An earnest discussion with my CO (who saw that very proximal garbage roll) also helped re-orient my bravado. He was talking to the CAS in front of the O's Mess when he saw the CAS expression change to horror - as he viewed me in the distance over the CO's shoulder. As I said later, on his carpet, "no sweat boss, I'm on top of it now. There's a bit of a trick to it.".
You really think this was a planned barrel roll after take off on a pairs take off proceeding on a ferry flight with Pax onboard?

Last edited by junior.VH-LFA; 18th May 2020 at 11:37.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:35
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by QDM360 View Post
Well, no. But taking off from runway 09, an ejection straight ahead would have sent the jet to downtown Kamloops. Lots of houses everywhere. I can understand that the pilot was looking for an alternate option and trying to steer the jet away from the inhabited areas.
I strapped into my first ejection seat equipped aircraft back in 1965. Since then I have NEVER heard any pilot or backseater talk about not ejecting promptly in order to avoid a populated area. Of course normal flight planning tries to avoid flying over houses to reduce noise pollution and/or keep from dropping bombs and stuff in Aunt Maud's back yard, and so on. If there is a town some distance off the end of a runway, I imagine the person writing the departure procedure would take that into account so that a normal departure would include a turn. That is generally the case for both military and civilian flying.
Generally speaking, you don't want to eject unless you have to. It's dangerous, it hurts, and there is a lot of paperwork associated with any ejection. However, when it IS time to eject........... well...... you EJECT and you don't want to waste a millisecond because doing so might get you killed. It's that simple.
And in this case, it looks like the plane actually crashed in somebody's front yard, the pilot ended up on a roof, and the passenger not far away.
The idea of sacrificing yourself on the off chance that you might steer away from a school yard is a myth perpetrated by an uneducated media.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:37
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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That was painful to watch, my heartfelt condolences to the young lady who lost her life, and my thoughts are with the injured pilot, one wishes you a speedy full recovery, both physically and mentally..

One also wonders how the woman you hear calling him a show off just prior to ejection is feeling and one hopes she too does not have nightmares over it,.
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Old 18th May 2020, 12:27
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
You really think this was a planned barrel roll after take off on a pairs take off proceeding on a ferry flight with Pax onboard?
I think the investigation will show that you are correct. Didnt look like one to me. That aircraft and pilot were not part of the show team.
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Old 18th May 2020, 13:13
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by monkey416 View Post
I think the investigation will show that you are correct. Didnt look like one to me. That aircraft and pilot were not part of the show team.
Yep, they're not doing aerobatics as such, more a formation flyover tour of Canada in stages. I assume the deceased was not actually a pilot but a team member, PR as I understand it. Not totally convinced non essential personnel should be flying in these circumstances. Apparently apart from the two spare Tutors they don't have any support aircraft.
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Old 18th May 2020, 13:16
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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The Blues are re-equipping with Super Hornets..
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Old 18th May 2020, 13:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
That was painful to watch, my heartfelt condolences to the young lady who lost her life, and my thoughts are with the injured pilot, one wishes you a speedy full recovery, both physically and mentally..

One also wonders how the woman you hear calling him a show off just prior to ejection is feeling and one hopes she too does not have nightmares over it,.
That 'woman' is clearly a young child. Let's hope she doesn't have nightmares.
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Old 18th May 2020, 13:22
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by standbykid View Post
Yep, they're not doing aerobatics as such, more a formation flyover tour of Canada in stages. I assume the deceased was not actually a pilot but a team member, PR as I understand it. Not totally convinced non essential personnel should be flying in these circumstances. Apparently apart from the two spare Tutors they don't have any support aircraft.
The flight wasn't part of a flyover.
The team were transitting to another location...

Apparently apart from the two spare Tutors they don't have any support aircraft.
Neither do many other teams...
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Old 18th May 2020, 13:22
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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RAAF Macchi's used to practice EFATO turn backs all the time in my day. I'm not aware that there was ever any crashes from this practice. To me it looks like an EFATO with the speed to height and maybe just got too slow for the turnback, stalled and sadly the end...
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Old 18th May 2020, 13:33
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by standbykid View Post
Yep, they're not doing aerobatics as such, more a formation flyover tour of Canada in stages. I assume the deceased was not actually a pilot but a team member, PR as I understand it. Not totally convinced non essential personnel should be flying in these circumstances. Apparently apart from the two spare Tutors they don't have any support aircraft.
The team were conducting a formation transit, a positioning leg. It is common for team members other than aircrew to travel with the formation. All of this information was easily found using google.
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