BA to RAF
I think the biggest problem the RAF currently has - or will have - when it comes to manpower, is the current halt on recruitment. Before the whole lockdown started, the RAF was down 6% on manning. Add to that the approximately 48 people who leave every week, which is 350 people and counting. The manpower shortage will only get worse.
I appreciate that courses are still starting, but all applications to join are hold, meaning there will be a massive backlog to get through when recruiting resumes. This may have an impact on future basic courses/IOT, with courses have zero candidates loaded.
I appreciate that courses are still starting, but all applications to join are hold, meaning there will be a massive backlog to get through when recruiting resumes. This may have an impact on future basic courses/IOT, with courses have zero candidates loaded.
I suspect that if senior enough people want this to happen, then it will. Conversely, if it is found to be too difficult/expensive/etc, it will be quietly shelved, and a great opportunity for both parties will have been missed.
I think the biggest problem the RAF currently has - or will have - when it comes to manpower, is the current halt on recruitment. Before the whole lockdown started, the RAF was down 6% on manning. Add to that the approximately 48 people who leave every week, which is 350 people and counting. The manpower shortage will only get worse.
I appreciate that courses are still starting, but all applications to join are hold, meaning there will be a massive backlog to get through when recruiting resumes. This may have an impact on future basic courses/IOT, with courses have zero candidates loaded.
I appreciate that courses are still starting, but all applications to join are hold, meaning there will be a massive backlog to get through when recruiting resumes. This may have an impact on future basic courses/IOT, with courses have zero candidates loaded.
LJ
He’s a witch. Burn him. Buurrrnnn hhhiimmm...
Come on, you know as well as I do that you’re not allowed to let facts and reason get in the way of a good whinge.
Shame on you.
BV
Come on, you know as well as I do that you’re not allowed to let facts and reason get in the way of a good whinge.
Shame on you.
BV
If there’s one thing that is drilled into you when you join the military it is to employ initiative and problem solve.
The lateral recruitment plan may not be easy but we all know a solution can be found.
I think the involved parties should be applauded for seeing an opportunity and running with it. If it doesn’t work out then nothing ventured nothing gained.
I know many people in the civilian aviation sector and I feared for all of them when this all kicked off. Especially those that were ‘last in’.
If this scheme can keep just one of my former colleagues from claiming universal credit then it’s a job well done in my mind.
Of course it’ll be a pay cut for a BA Captain to rejoin the RAF (they know that) but for the money they’re likely to earn I guess they would gladly peel potatoes for 3-4 years rather than drive a delivery truck for 1/4 of the money.
So from me it’s a big thumbs up for those trying to make it work and a big thumbs down to all the whingers who can only see the negatives.
BV
The lateral recruitment plan may not be easy but we all know a solution can be found.
I think the involved parties should be applauded for seeing an opportunity and running with it. If it doesn’t work out then nothing ventured nothing gained.
I know many people in the civilian aviation sector and I feared for all of them when this all kicked off. Especially those that were ‘last in’.
If this scheme can keep just one of my former colleagues from claiming universal credit then it’s a job well done in my mind.
Of course it’ll be a pay cut for a BA Captain to rejoin the RAF (they know that) but for the money they’re likely to earn I guess they would gladly peel potatoes for 3-4 years rather than drive a delivery truck for 1/4 of the money.
So from me it’s a big thumbs up for those trying to make it work and a big thumbs down to all the whingers who can only see the negatives.
BV
Jack
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Only Pilots?
Many of the comments in this thread seem to assume that only BA pilots will be seconded, and that these personnel will be used to fly planes...
From the Daily Mail (and I do apologise for using this as a source):
"BRITISH Airways pilots and other aviation staff could be loaned to the RAF for up to four years........Staff could be seconded in flying and groundbased roles"...
So no official guarantee of a flying seat at this point.
In addition, could this move be seen as 'State Aid' to BA? The wording on any contract would have to be very carefully drafted to avoid other airlines crying foul.
From the Daily Mail (and I do apologise for using this as a source):
"BRITISH Airways pilots and other aviation staff could be loaned to the RAF for up to four years........Staff could be seconded in flying and groundbased roles"...
So no official guarantee of a flying seat at this point.
In addition, could this move be seen as 'State Aid' to BA? The wording on any contract would have to be very carefully drafted to avoid other airlines crying foul.
TiC post.
Are there slots for pilots in the predator fleet?
Will they be allowed to wear their 4 barred BA jackets at beer calls?
What does instant expert Laura Kuensberg think about it all?
.....these and many other questions 😉
Will they be allowed to wear their 4 barred BA jackets at beer calls?
What does instant expert Laura Kuensberg think about it all?
.....these and many other questions 😉
Many of the comments in this thread seem to assume that only BA pilots will be seconded, and that these personnel will be used to fly planes...
From the Daily Mail (and I do apologise for using this as a source):
"BRITISH Airways pilots and other aviation staff could be loaned to the RAF for up to four years........Staff could be seconded in flying and groundbased roles"...
So no official guarantee of a flying seat at this point.
In addition, could this move be seen as 'State Aid' to BA? The wording on any contract would have to be very carefully drafted to avoid other airlines crying foul.
From the Daily Mail (and I do apologise for using this as a source):
"BRITISH Airways pilots and other aviation staff could be loaned to the RAF for up to four years........Staff could be seconded in flying and groundbased roles"...
So no official guarantee of a flying seat at this point.
In addition, could this move be seen as 'State Aid' to BA? The wording on any contract would have to be very carefully drafted to avoid other airlines crying foul.
As to State Aid, BA have had more of its share of that over the years not least from not being broken up into separate long haul and short haul companies when privatised to even out more the competition with the so called 'Independents'. There is also the near monopoly of the LHR Slots of course. The combination of those two silver spoons meant that for years contractions in the industry meant that Independent pilots lost their jobs while BA ones kept theirs. Is this scheme designed to continue that process and if so, why?
Can we take it as read that when the Daily Mail is quoted a standard apology is implicit in that? I grow tired of seeing it repeated ad nauseum here...
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I too would question why British Airways seems to be the centre of interest here, especially when BALPA is quoted as being heavily involved. They draw their membership from all over the UK airlines together with the attendant subscriptions, so why all this talk of British Airways rather than British Airlines? We all know the old saw of it being the British Airways Line Pilots Association but it seems there may be some truth in that from what we are being told. Obviously those who have recently left the RAF to the join the airlines may be a more practical choice for the RAF to draw from, and perhaps the majority of them joined BA. I don't know if that is the case but if it is then the emphasis should be on those in that category and not on any particular airline.
As to State Aid, BA have had more of its share of that over the years not least from not being broken up into separate long haul and short haul companies when privatised to even out more the competition with the so called 'Independents'. There is also the near monopoly of the LHR Slots of course. The combination of those two silver spoons meant that for years contractions in the industry meant that Independent pilots lost their jobs while BA ones kept theirs. Is this scheme designed to continue that process and if so, why?
Can we take it as read that when the Daily Mail is quoted a standard apology is implicit in that? I grow tired of seeing it repeated ad nauseum here...
As to State Aid, BA have had more of its share of that over the years not least from not being broken up into separate long haul and short haul companies when privatised to even out more the competition with the so called 'Independents'. There is also the near monopoly of the LHR Slots of course. The combination of those two silver spoons meant that for years contractions in the industry meant that Independent pilots lost their jobs while BA ones kept theirs. Is this scheme designed to continue that process and if so, why?
Can we take it as read that when the Daily Mail is quoted a standard apology is implicit in that? I grow tired of seeing it repeated ad nauseum here...
JT:-
In what way pray? Just because I've suggested that this initiative is biased towards BA that means that I'm opposed to any UK airline pilots being kept employed thanks to it? How does that work then? As you say, it was devised by the BACC whose remit is to protect BA pilots. In this matter I'm sure that they are in lock-step with BA as it means their pilots will be available again to them when needed rather than having to be made redundant. You may well say that BALPA will ensure that other pilots employed by other airlines will be equally open for selection should the scheme go ahead. My reply would be that all pilots are equal under BALPA, but some are more equal than others. I would strongly suggest that other companies' PLCs start seriously lobbying BALPA now, and not wait around as you suggest to see what comes of it. It would be nice to think that at least some of their pilots might retain their jobs this time instead of the default we are all so used to.
It’s almost as if you want to see fellow aviators out of a job.
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JT:-
In what way pray? Just because I've suggested that this initiative is biased towards BA that means that I'm opposed to any UK airline pilots being kept employed thanks to it? How does that work then? As you say, it was devised by the BACC whose remit is to protect BA pilots. In this matter I'm sure that they are in lock-step with BA as it means their pilots will be available again to them when needed rather than having to be made redundant. You may well say that BALPA will ensure that other pilots employed by other airlines will be equally open for selection should the scheme go ahead. My reply would be that all pilots are equal under BALPA, but some are more equal than others. I would strongly suggest that other companies' PLCs start seriously lobbying BALPA now, and not wait around as you suggest to see what comes of it. It would be nice to think that at least some of their pilots might retain their jobs this time instead of the default we are all so used to.
In what way pray? Just because I've suggested that this initiative is biased towards BA that means that I'm opposed to any UK airline pilots being kept employed thanks to it? How does that work then? As you say, it was devised by the BACC whose remit is to protect BA pilots. In this matter I'm sure that they are in lock-step with BA as it means their pilots will be available again to them when needed rather than having to be made redundant. You may well say that BALPA will ensure that other pilots employed by other airlines will be equally open for selection should the scheme go ahead. My reply would be that all pilots are equal under BALPA, but some are more equal than others. I would strongly suggest that other companies' PLCs start seriously lobbying BALPA now, and not wait around as you suggest to see what comes of it. It would be nice to think that at least some of their pilots might retain their jobs this time instead of the default we are all so used to.
BALPA is made up of the pilots in a company and its up to them to come up with ways of protecting their jobs. Unless those companies are prepared to offer a right to return then this is an irrelevant project as the opportunity to return to the military is there for any one with the right qualifications.
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Chugalug I’m not sure what your point is. You are hell bent on making this out as Big Balpa looking after only BA pilots. It has nothing to do with Big Balpa. If you read the replies you are getting, the reality of the initiative has been explained to you.
I get the feeling you just want to stir up **** about your own perceived injustices regarding Balpa and it’s motives. At a time like this I can assure you of one thing - no one cares.
I get the feeling you just want to stir up **** about your own perceived injustices regarding Balpa and it’s motives. At a time like this I can assure you of one thing - no one cares.
I'm quite sure that this idea wasn't the sole inspiration of the BACC. Any ex-RAF airline pilot faced with an up to date knowledge of pilot and staff shortages in the Service, and faced with likely redundancy from their own company, would have pondered about the chances of re-joining, whether on a temporary or semi-permanent basis. He or she might even have followed up on a personal basis to contacts within the RAF or via their own company PLC. The difference here is the clout of the BACC with its own company and its ability to formulate policy with it. It is interesting that you both use the term 'Big BALPA' to differentiate it from the BACC (which presumably is 'Little BALPA'?). No other PLC/CC can wield the power of the BACC, they invariably have to seek the help and advice of BALPA itself in best representing their pilots interests. But here we are led to believe that the BACC is consulting with BA and the MOD, and on behalf of who? My guess would be of BA pilots.
Can you not understand that if the PLC of any other UK airline was doing the same thing that BA pilots would be rightly outraged that a such deal was being done on behalf of the pilots of that company and not of UK airline pilots as a whole? Justice and fairness calls for this initiative to be carried on by BALPA, not the BACC, and on behalf of all UK airline pilots and not just BA ones. The real negotiation is of course not with the companies but with the MOD who will call the shots. They can choose who they please and should do. BALPA is honour bound to ensure that choice is open to all their members and not biased to any one particular company.
Can you not understand that if the PLC of any other UK airline was doing the same thing that BA pilots would be rightly outraged that a such deal was being done on behalf of the pilots of that company and not of UK airline pilots as a whole? Justice and fairness calls for this initiative to be carried on by BALPA, not the BACC, and on behalf of all UK airline pilots and not just BA ones. The real negotiation is of course not with the companies but with the MOD who will call the shots. They can choose who they please and should do. BALPA is honour bound to ensure that choice is open to all their members and not biased to any one particular company.
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Despite the chat on here, I’m not 100% certain it was BACC who made the approach.
I’ve a feeling it was someone in company. Could be widely off the mark here, but there are a lot of people assuming it was the CC when it may not have been.
I’ve a feeling it was someone in company. Could be widely off the mark here, but there are a lot of people assuming it was the CC when it may not have been.
Thank you VR, you may well be right. The fact remains though that the BACC will by now have made it its business. I repeat my point that BALPA should now take up the cudgels on behalf of all its members and ensure that everyone of them should have an equal opportunity to be considered in such a scheme should they so wish. It may be the preoccupation of BA pilots that by doing so they would retain their BA seniority. I suspect that it would be the preoccupation of many other pilots that they retain the chance of retaining a flying career, or failing that any career in aviation at all....