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BA to RAF

Old 18th May 2020, 19:19
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
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Originally Posted by 3 bladed beast View Post
Im very happy for people to join/rejoin the RAF. However, in my humble opinion, it cannot be at the expense of people in the training systems, on the ocu or front line. Those who have chosen a career and life in the RAF.

There are so many capable people who have left that would be most welcome back. I think manning have stated it won't be to the detriment of those who are currently serving.

We shall have to see on that promise.
That is correct
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Old 18th May 2020, 19:54
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
Taking the SNCO Pilot debate out of the weeds we need to think more “Why do we have SNCO/WO Pilots?”. For starters, most kids that want to be Pilots are graduates and do not want to be SNCOs. They want a Queen’s Commission and the kudos that attracts. Further, the cost of SNCO Pilots works out more expensive in the first part of their 20 year career too - don’t forget that Officer Aircrew and NCO Pilots get exactly the same RRP(F) between OR6 rank and OF3 ranks.

OR6 Supplement 4 Sgt starting salary = £39,114
OF1 Fg Off starting salary = £32,780

So the Sgt is paid nearly £7k more

After 2.5 years the Fg Off promotes to Flt Lt
OF2 Flt Lt starting salary = £42k (For 2 years)
OR 6 Supp 4 Level 2 = £40.2k
OR 6 Supp 4 Level 3 = £41.3

So the Flt Lt slowly claws back the £18k the Sgt is paid more than the Fg Off in the first 2.5 years over the next 10 years! By then the SNCO Pilot has promoted to FS/SSgt within 6 years (on average) so the repayment gap is still narrow.

OR7 Supp 4 starting salary = £44.5k
OF2 Flt Lt Level 5 = £47.3k

Top whack for a Flt Lt is £49.9k and for a OR-9 WO1/MAcr Pilot would be £53.2k.

So when you consider the RRP(F) is the same, they both get a £70k RP and they both have PAS/PES(A) available now at same place under AFPS15 (all ranks for EDP 20/40). Then you also take into account that SNCOs pay less for the same size of married quarters and get free uniform issue.

I want to ask, as a taxpayer, why we are paying for more expensive SNCO/WO Pilots when the job can be done by cheaper Commissioned Officers and we build a better cadre of staff officers for the senior ranks?
Worth pointing out that many NCO pilots are not substantive Sgts during the course and don’t qualify for supp 4 until qualified on type so really you could only be paying ~£28k pa to train them. The Officer will promote on time, the NCO will struggle to promote on course due to lack of/weak reports meaning the commissioned one will end up costing more
trim it out is offline  
Old 18th May 2020, 21:01
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Entertaining thread with a lot of biased rubbish.

Heard a lot before..pilots are pilots good or bad from wherever.
I was turned down at Biggin Hill for a short service commision as I knew nowt about detachments and aircraft types..join ATC and come back next year as Army Cadets did not count. Turned down by some old engineer hating pilot CO, went back and was accused of being a liar and would be difficult as my father was a frog (translator for deGaulle).
So it was Hamble and three trident pilots where the consenus was military pilots don't make good crew members.
Well that was right if you judged those that learnt the handshake and went into management.
Had a good mate who resigned from Jet Provests after two of his course mates died..said the instruction was at fault.
BA and first cross transfer onto the VC10 and ex Hamble instructors... some good some rubbish.
Joined the Swiss, higher poling standards flying with mainly ex military fast jet pilots..Swiss, German, Dutch, French and the "odd" brit..odd being the operative word. The BEA myth was bollox wrt to military pilots not being any good in civil transport. It was about selecting the best.
Fast forward to a presentation at Toulouse by head of pilot requirements at Airbus who tried to sell the cadets who had been to Uni were best..rest rubbish..turned out naval architecture degree followed by sleazy jet.
But the best one for lack of common sense was at my only Irish general aviation safety meeting where after a lot of hostility I gave a precis of my experience which shut most of them up.
The only other brit was wearing a tie that I couldn't believe given the history over here...twas a Harrier RAF one. For those who haven't been bored by one of his ilk..not unlike a course mate of mine who flew concorde "of course none of you know what skilled pilots we are"..the Harrier is viewed from head on and with it's anhedral looks like an Antonov so in feigned innocence I asked him if he had flown an Antonov...was half way through his RAF harrier speil before he twigged.
For those who have never had Swiss command training after 20 years of flying jets it was around six months learning everything about the operation from the kitchens, bomb disposal, SAS equivalent, ATC....you name it.
Good luck to all of those guys in these difficult times and I have always wondered why the RAF do not do the Swiss military reserve system?
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Old 18th May 2020, 21:51
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by trim it out View Post
Worth pointing out that many NCO pilots are not substantive Sgts during the course and don’t qualify for supp 4 until qualified on type so really you could only be paying ~£28k pa to train them. The Officer will promote on time, the NCO will struggle to promote on course due to lack of/weak reports meaning the commissioned one will end up costing more
Thanks - although even a OR-4 Level 1 Cpl on Supp 1 starts on £31,244.76p these days. Which is pretty much the same as a Fg Off/Lt. I also found some FOI info dating back to 2014 where there were 190 NCO Pilots in the AAC trained strength - the breakdown of which is thus:

Warrant Officer Class 1 30
Warrant Officer Class 2 70
Staff Sergeant 50
Sergeant 40

With only ~1/4 at OR-6 that ain’t cheap!!

It’s a big myth that SNCO Pilots are cheaper. They just aren’t.
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Old 18th May 2020, 22:32
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
Thanks - although even a OR-4 Level 1 Cpl on Supp 1 starts on £31,244.76p these days. Which is pretty much the same as a Fg Off/Lt. I also found some FOI info dating back to 2014 where there were 190 NCO Pilots in the AAC trained strength - the breakdown of which is thus:

Warrant Officer Class 1 30
Warrant Officer Class 2 70
Staff Sergeant 50
Sergeant 40

With only ~1/4 at OR-6 that ain’t cheap!!

It’s a big myth that SNCO Pilots are cheaper. They just aren’t.
Hmmm. If you take a LCpl (Level 3 let’s say so he has his recommend in order to qualify for the pilot course) and a FgO who start the same pilot course (assume the FgO goes RW for a side by side comparison) then the Officer will be taking home 40k plus a lot sooner than the NCO due to promoting on timelines while the NCO marks time on course. If both only stay in for the minimum RoS then the Officer works out a lot more expensive than the NCO.

Of course there are many, many caveats that could be thrown into the mix and we could end up going round in circles playing with the numbers to suit our own perspectives but one thing I have learnt is that upon investigation, WO1s and Flt Lts can only get to level 30 on PA so can’t cost more (in wage) than one another if they are both at the top of the tree 🌝

Apologies for thread drift but I’ve always been interested in the NCO vs Commission front seater piece from different service perspectives

trim it out is offline  
Old 19th May 2020, 12:09
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
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Just to say that for ex-BA jockeys, being called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice may not be in your control.

When you take the Queen's shilling, all bets are off.

IG
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Old 19th May 2020, 17:16
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
Just to say that for ex-BA jockeys, being called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice may not be in your control.

When you take the Queen's shilling, all bets are off.

IG
If they've been paying any attention to the war stories being told on "the other" forum they should have got that message by now...

"Three minutes notice of a six month deployment to the sandpit...you were lucky"
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Old 22nd May 2020, 15:20
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Why the concentration on the Junior Service? There is another operator of fast jets - namely the Fleet Air Arm. In my own experience, airlines much prefer ex-Navy as their thinking is not so rigid and formalised.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 15:24
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiltshireman View Post
Why the concentration on the Junior Service? There is another operator of fast jets - namely the Fleet Air Arm. In my own experience, airlines much prefer ex-Navy as their thinking is not so rigid and formalised.
Numbers dear boy, numbers. The FAA is tiny compared to the RAF and the fixed wing component miniscule. Plus RN fixed wing aircrew are trained by the RAF and operate to the exact same "rigid and formalised" procedures in Joint Force Lightning.

Anyway, this thread is about aircrew going the opposite way, from the airlines to the military. Don't think there is going to be a need for additional aircrew in the airlines for a very long time.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 21:55
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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ex-Navy as their thinking is not so rigid and formalised.
The RN always saw aircraft as just another (disposable) weapons system, not as a means in itself.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:04
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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The gift that keeps on giving

Not content with dredging up the civilian vs military and the Officers vs SNCO pilots debates, I see we have now moved onto Air Force vs Navy.

Since there are no solid facts forthcoming what other pointless arguments can we cover?

Single seat vs twin seat?

RAF Regiment vs Army?

Airbus vs Boeing?

VHS vs Betamax?

BV
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:27
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Not content with dredging up the civilian vs military and the Officers vs SNCO pilots debates, I see we have now moved onto Air Force vs Navy.

Since there are no solid facts forthcoming what other pointless arguments can we cover?

Single seat vs twin seat?

RAF Regiment vs Army?

Airbus vs Boeing?

VHS vs Betamax?

BV
Hmmmm......funny you should bring that up Bob! I never did get a definitive answer on the whole VHS vs Betamax thing? VHS man myself.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:43
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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BV,

I always like reading your posts-they’re always a breath of fresh air to me.

I’m surprised the whole “should RPAS Pilots wear wings/get flying suits/get inflight catering” hasn’t reared its head yet!
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Old 23rd May 2020, 18:24
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Professor Plum View Post
BV,

I always like reading your posts-they’re always a breath of fresh air to me.

I’m surprised the whole “should RPAS Pilots wear wings/get flying suits/get inflight catering” hasn’t reared its head yet!
Depends - do the cabin crew also have wings?
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Old 24th May 2020, 09:46
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
Depends - do the cabin crew also have wings?
Round and round the same buoy yet again? The issue is not the badge they wear. Indeed, no two airlines issue the same badge for their cabin crews. What they do share with each other and with their regulator is to acknowledge the status of their cabin crew as being that of aircrew. That is in stark contrast with the RAF which, according to posts on this forum, views their status as synonymous with role equipment along with the seating that their pax would occupy, and employs them within a ground trade. The patronising and dismissive comments made here regarding RAF cabin crew speak more of a superiority complex within some RAF aircrew than the professional competence and ability of their Cabin Crew. Pride, Ladies and Gentlemen, pride....
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Old 24th May 2020, 09:51
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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PP and AtG

Bravo gentlemen. Well played. 🎣

BV
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Old 24th May 2020, 10:03
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Bravo gentlemen. Well played. 🎣

BV
My thoughts exactly, especially in view of Post No 1 at New Flying Badges !

Jack
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Old 24th May 2020, 10:18
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Hook, line and sinker!! 😂 Too cruel!!
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Old 24th May 2020, 11:47
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Bravo gentlemen. Well played. 🎣

BV
I'm really hurt. I used that bait at post 37. Nothing! Not a nibble!

CG
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Old 24th May 2020, 11:56
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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CG

I see you did. Wrong kind of bait it would appear.

But you can have a pat on the back for trying.

BV
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