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BA to RAF

Old 14th May 2020, 22:15
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you VR, you may well be right. The fact remains though that the BACC will by now have made it its business. I repeat my point that BALPA should now take up the cudgels on behalf of all its members and ensure that everyone of them should have an equal opportunity to be considered in such a scheme should they so wish. It may be the preoccupation of BA pilots that by doing so they would retain their BA seniority. I suspect that it would be the preoccupation of many other pilots that they retain the chance of retaining a flying career, or failing that any career in aviation at all....
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Old 14th May 2020, 22:57
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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I repeat my point that BALPA should now take up the cudgels on behalf of all its members and ensure that everyone of them should have an equal opportunity to be considered in such a scheme should they so wish.

Really not going to happen. You are grasping at straws if you think the MOD will consider anyone without previous.

Most pilots l know would not be able to pass army basic training. I could not run 1.5 miles in 10 min 30 now. I could do the CFT with 25kg and do 8 miles in under 2 hours. Not sure what the RAF one is but certainly less arduous.
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Old 15th May 2020, 05:28
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Dook Laura Kuensberg is a BBC political reporter.
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:16
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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DB:-
Really not going to happen. You are grasping at straws if you think the MOD will consider anyone without previous.
Most pilots l know would not be able to pass army basic training. I could not run 1.5 miles in 10 min 30 now. I could do the CFT with 25kg and do 8 miles in under 2 hours. Not sure what the RAF one is but certainly less arduous.
You may well be right but it is up to the MOD to decide who, if anyone at all, that it will consider. If it is only interested in those with 'previous' what makes you think they are solely and uniquely presently with British Airways? If 'previous' is the starting point for consideration then BALPA should ensure that any of its members with 'previous' and who wish to be considered should be, no matter where they are now employed. I would suggest that it is BA pilots who are clutching at straws if they assume that because the BACC has this in hand then they should have first dibs at any jobs offered by the MOD. BALPA subs paid should entitle all its members to equal treatment. Will it?
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Old 15th May 2020, 08:13
  #85 (permalink)  

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I was invited to return to the RAF as a high readiness reserve pilot. I was working overseas at the time, flying for a foreign government. The RAF wanted me to attend every month and offered me a daily rate of about forty five quid plus a bit of motor mileage from Luton airport. I would be expected to pay my own airfare to and from UK at £1200 for a return trip. Obviously, I’d need to buy a car at Luton every time I arrived there and sell it on departure.

I declined their kind offer.
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Old 15th May 2020, 08:22
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Having just retired from a non-UK airline after 23 years (and a full career on FJs prior to this) a word of warning. Ex-military pilots on the big jets are completely different animals to the Hamble/cadet/self-improver types. They bring a wealth of experience with them that is not recognised by the oft-arrogant civvies. All we did (on big Boeings/Airbus) was a simple transit, made ‘difficult’ by experts: there was no low-level, refuelling, para-dropping or any of the other myriad of tasks taken on by the RAF. If this scheme were to go ahead, I would hope that only ex-military pilots would be considered. I do not think that the entrenched thinking of the civvies would meld into RAF operations easily; RAF guys might learn a few things about ILS approaches though 🤣🤣🤣. There is (are) a reason(s) that the others did not make it into the military...
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Old 15th May 2020, 08:29
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
Dook Laura Kuenssberg is a BBC political reporter.
Fixed that for you - and Dook, who I suspect was teasing you about your spelling anyway - although the family name was originally "von Kuenssberg".

Jack

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Old 15th May 2020, 10:28
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GICASI2 View Post
Having just retired from a non-UK airline after 23 years (and a full career on FJs prior to this) a word of warning. Ex-military pilots on the big jets are completely different animals to the Hamble/cadet/self-improver types. They bring a wealth of experience with them that is not recognised by the oft-arrogant civvies. All we did (on big Boeings/Airbus) was a simple transit, made ‘difficult’ by experts: there was no low-level, refuelling, para-dropping or any of the other myriad of tasks taken on by the RAF. If this scheme were to go ahead, I would hope that only ex-military pilots would be considered. I do not think that the entrenched thinking of the civvies would meld into RAF operations easily; RAF guys might learn a few things about ILS approaches though 🤣🤣🤣. There is (are) a reason(s) that the others did not make it into the military...

Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree with this. To get through a self funded ATPL shows a lot of resilience. Many of the guys have faced multiple redundancy, disrupted flying as a result, yet have gotten into the sim and consistently performed, often having not been at the controls for 12 months. For anyone who hasn't completed the BA assessment sim, it isn't a trivial affair.

People also need to consider that Low Level, para, SKE, NVG, NSO TALT, are just additional skillsets. They are no different to skills required for the civvie role, customer service, disruptive passenger handling or a CAT III equipment failure below alert height or flying with 3 minutes statistical contingency fuel. Same focus, same professionalism. You function and train to a set of standards and perform to them. There will of course be a number that struggle, it is a massive culture change. But to write people off for not having the required gumption or mettle as they are "civvies", from my experience is wholly wrong. Heathrow aircraft were landing in crosswinds and conditions during the winter storms well above anything seen during my military time, with an awareness from operations of the impact with mitigations (an extra 40 mins fuel without even asking for it on the plan, well thought out diversions) put in place before crew in. How often would you have seen that from an RAF Flight ops perspective?

There are a fair few ex single seat fast jet mates who have struggled in a multi crew environment, more systems management focused environment, unable to handle the banter. Does that apply to every single seat pilot? Absolutely not. We shouldn't be applying the same myopic view of civilians who can make a genuine contribution, with a fresh set of eyes to our operation and ask "why do you do it like that"? The people in the civilian market have a vast wealth of both personal life experience as well as a deep knowledge of human factors and the aviation world. Route knowledge and nuisances about a particular approach at some unheard of diversion that you dip in with an 80 year old granny dying of a TMI is second to none, as is operational decision making processes and formal structures for emergencies handling, none of which are formally taught but assumed as "airmanship" within the military. There is a lot of potential for this to be a symbiotic relationship and if given the go-ahead, should be seen as such.

Last edited by VinRouge; 15th May 2020 at 10:50.
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Old 15th May 2020, 10:56
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Coming from a half RAF and half BA family all I can say is well said sir. Any pilot can learn something from any other pilot.

LD

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Old 15th May 2020, 11:05
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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I think it’s fair to say that nobody is born a SkyGod*.Surely, given the necessary training, a non mil pilot can be taught the extra skills necessary to carry out a military role? I should imagine that any interview process would test that such skills can be acquired in the required timeframe and budget?
* Harrier pilots excepted , of course 😊
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Old 15th May 2020, 11:44
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Well said Vin Rouge.

What's a better fruit;

An Apple, or a Pear?
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Old 15th May 2020, 14:10
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent post Vin Rouge.

We have all been made aware of the awesomeness of Harrier pilots but on the whole most military people including FJ are down to earth, humble and fit in to the civillian world very easily. I have seen both sides and the humour and banter is more or lees the same, we all moan about management and can do a better job than the CEO / CAS but at the end of the day we are goal focused and just get the job done. A wild cross windy winters day on a multi sector rush-rush short-haul operation is probably far more demanding than anything a multi engine heavy fleet (E3, P8) RAF pilot is likely to experience but clearly the skill set aptitude and sheer ability to stand the training pressure to reach the front line on a F35 / Typhoon would be beyond most Airline pilots.
As for the officer first pilot second thing, I didn't meet many who truly believed that.



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Old 15th May 2020, 14:31
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Come on biddedout, you endorse a highly eloquent post and then contradict it by saying that civvies couldn’t fly the F35/Typhoon. For your information, an F35/Typhoon pilot is just a civilian that has passed the relevant courses.

There are outstanding individuals in all streams of aviation, just as there are some less outstanding individuals in all streams of aviation.

Can this silly willy waving contest please stop, and a sensible discussion about the mutual benefits that this proposed scheme could bring restart.

ATB

LD
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Old 15th May 2020, 14:41
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Fair point LD, I was waffling and missing the point. I think you said what I was trying to say.
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Old 15th May 2020, 20:12
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Professor Plum View Post
Well said Vin Rouge.

What's a better fruit;

An Apple, or a Pear?
A pear can fly formation.














Hat, coat, taxi....
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Old 15th May 2020, 20:21
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post
A pear can fly formation.














Hat, coat, taxi....
must have been apples in the Phenoms then?
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Old 15th May 2020, 21:24
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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@BV. Well said sir.
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Old 15th May 2020, 22:09
  #98 (permalink)  
YRP
 
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Ok if one from the colonies might ask for a clarification:

What in the blazes is a tarts and vicars course?
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Old 15th May 2020, 23:23
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Tarts and Vicars course

A mildly derogatory term for the short commissioning course at RAF College Cranwell for already professionally qualified candidates, eg doctors, dentists and members of the clergy. (Officially SERE - Special Entrants and Re-Entrants).

While 'Vicars' refers to the clergy, 'Tarts' is in no way a reference to the others on the course, but is purely a correlation with a well known party theme 😁.
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Old 16th May 2020, 09:55
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Theres a lot of good stuff on this thread, equalled by the usual nonsense.

Speaking from personal experience, ( ex RAF QFI and Boeing training captain) many civilian pilots, if they bad chosen , would have done very well in the RAF. They chose a different lifestyle. Equally, many would not have done at all well.

That said, some FJ pilots did not do well in civil aviation. The hardest trainee on a Boeing I ever had was ex FJ and even ex WIWOLS and V force captains.have failed command courses, despite our best efforts.That said, many were excellent.

Its impossible to generalise, but in these extraordinary times, lets give it a go.

Perhaps its also time for the RAF and MOD to take a closer look at what is done in the US, the Air National Guard.

My guess is that many ex RAF/ RN pilots who have moved to civil aviation would LOVE to go back to some military flying, and it might also address the shortage in the RAF at minimal cost. Win,win?

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 16th May 2020 at 10:14.
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