Admiral Woodward's attitude to the RAF intelligence product...?
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Admiral Woodward's attitude to the RAF intelligence product...?
Author Rowland White tweeted earlier:
Roger Ford replied that:
With the COVID 19 outbreak it's not easy to simply get a copy of Woodward's book to see what Mr Ford meant. Can anyone enlighten me?
38 yrs ago today a Nimrod R1 took off from RAF Wyton on a long journey to San Felix Island in the South Pacific. Chilean territory. From there they flew intel gathering missions in support of the Task Force. More detail than ever before in #Harrier809
Roger Ford replied that:
Admiral Woodward didn't think much off the resulting RAF Intel.
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He can't have been that unimpressed - according to Exocet Falklands (and the Official History), Admiral Woodward "asked for further flights over the three days prior to the landings at San Carlos on 21 May."
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You want to read this months Aeroplane monthly with the PR Spit on the Cover, it covers the RAF Canberras to Chile and the efforts involved, including the RAF Hercs with Chilean markings added to avoid the attentions of the Russian satellites and the plan to fly the PR Canberras also to be wearing Chilean markings on one leg into Chile and land on a road at night at the max range to refuel from a prepositioned Herc.. The idea was to be training the Chilean military on their newly acquired Canberras by actually flying spying missions on Argentina.. I liked the bit that Pylons were added utilising a load of metal tubing found behind Wytons NAAFI!
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I have read, enjoyed and inwardly digested it, Nutty!
But that's a great shout - the Canberra tale is really interesting, and White tells it really well.
He concludes that the PR9s never got any further than Belize, before the mission was cancelled.
But Jon Snow swears blind that he (and his cameraman, a well known aircraft spotter) saw two PR9s at Punta Arenas during the war........
But that's a great shout - the Canberra tale is really interesting, and White tells it really well.
He concludes that the PR9s never got any further than Belize, before the mission was cancelled.
But Jon Snow swears blind that he (and his cameraman, a well known aircraft spotter) saw two PR9s at Punta Arenas during the war........
Can I ask - have you had a review copy? I've ordered this and been eagerly awaiting the publication, only to be told that publication has now been delayed to 15th October 2020. Would have been ideal lockdown material.
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Without wanting to make you sick with envy, I must confess that I do have a pre-publication proof copy.
It's a rattling good read - written in Rowland White's trademark page-turning 'thriller' style. He writes great books effortlessly, and manages to make his books commercially successful - it's enough to make you go green with envy!
It's a rattling good read - written in Rowland White's trademark page-turning 'thriller' style. He writes great books effortlessly, and manages to make his books commercially successful - it's enough to make you go green with envy!
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Ford tweeted that: "The RAF was interpreting Searchwater data. For example identifying a container ship as the Argentine carrier which by then was back in port. See Woodward 100 days."
Someone has already told him that he's got the wrong sort of Nimrod........
Someone has already told him that he's got the wrong sort of Nimrod........
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R1 had a weather radar and 51 were not doing maritime radar surveillance in Corporate. It's not what they did for a living......
If looking for an aircraft carrier it could have easily been mistaken for a container ship. Dependent on range scale, aspect and how the container ship was loaded, these all affected what the operator saw on his screen. Searchwater was good, but it did have limitations.
My Dad was one of the Air Intel Officers at Northwood during the war. He mentioned it was commendable how all three services interacted and in particular how Sandy Woodward listened to and took on board every piece of information available to him. Dad reckoned he was the right man in place for the job at the time.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 8th May 2020 at 11:05.
Yes, and he was a breath of fresh air when he arrived in JHQ, RAFG c. 1991. Almost his first action was to get all the clocks in the RAF areas synchronised. He interviewed every Head of Branch in quick time. He asked me: what is your biggest problem that you think I can solve. And sorted it.
Sandy was like Marmite. I suspect that his detractors had felt the very sharp edge of his tongue, because he was brutal with incompetents.
Pity about the curtains.
Sandy was like Marmite. I suspect that his detractors had felt the very sharp edge of his tongue, because he was brutal with incompetents.
Pity about the curtains.
I shared a VC10 tanker with him on the way down to the ME in 92. As a passenger, he was distinctly unpleasant to the crew and unnecessarily antagonist. Marmite, yes, maybe.
anyway, I thought this thread was about Woodward, not Wilson.
anyway, I thought this thread was about Woodward, not Wilson.
It’s covered in the Nimrod Boys book. I think it’s is the section by Dick Straw. A crew reported spotting Type 42s, causing consternation in the Task Force. What had happened - and here I summarise, probably in terms which will have Nimrod crew thinking ‘eh?’ - was that a pair of South Korean/Taiwanese trawlers or factory ships turned out to have an almost identical return to a T42. Woodward grumbled that the T42s were known to be tied up alongside, and what were the RAF up to? (I imagine that his grumpiness might well have been fed by the CO of Hermes).
As the Nimrod crew pointed out, it might have been handy had this information been passed on to them before they took off, and they would then have been able to conclude that the contact was either a T42 with a warp drive or something else...
There is, somewhere in the files, a polite but grumpy note by Admiral Fieldhouse pointing out that the dissemination of information might be a bit better (although IIRC, this refers to the Chiefs having been waiting for imagery of Black Buck One for over a week).
As the Nimrod crew pointed out, it might have been handy had this information been passed on to them before they took off, and they would then have been able to conclude that the contact was either a T42 with a warp drive or something else...
There is, somewhere in the files, a polite but grumpy note by Admiral Fieldhouse pointing out that the dissemination of information might be a bit better (although IIRC, this refers to the Chiefs having been waiting for imagery of Black Buck One for over a week).
Remember also an aircraft carrier was also detected. This telegram shows some data about this contacts (first assumed as Argentinians but later evaluated from other countries). As a side note, the Brazilians answered this query, informing its own carrier was in port. And, finally, I think Moskva (the soviet aircraft carrier) entered the south atlantic some weeks later.
Regards to all!
Regards to all!
I have read, enjoyed and inwardly digested it, Nutty!
But that's a great shout - the Canberra tale is really interesting, and White tells it really well.
He concludes that the PR9s never got any further than Belize, before the mission was cancelled.
But Jon Snow swears blind that he (and his cameraman, a well known aircraft spotter) saw two PR9s at Punta Arenas during the war........
But that's a great shout - the Canberra tale is really interesting, and White tells it really well.
He concludes that the PR9s never got any further than Belize, before the mission was cancelled.
But Jon Snow swears blind that he (and his cameraman, a well known aircraft spotter) saw two PR9s at Punta Arenas during the war........
The same precautions were not, however, in force at Santiago airport in mid-May, where ITN reporter Jon Snow saw two Canberras in Chilean markings, amongst a group of military aircraft including heavy US Air Force transports.
https://www.duncancampbell.org/PDF/t...connection.pdf
At distance and in amongst other aircraft I suspect that Chilean Air Force A-37 Dragonfly were mistaken for Canberras.
The combination of the tail/tail planes and the under wing stores/tip tanks could result in that mistake. The A-37 also has a pop up canopy. At distance it could be mistaken for a raised PR.9 canopy?
Links to Chilean Air Force A-37 pics.
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chil...318E/1643483/L
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chil...318E/1371106/L
Link to Chilean Air Force Canberra PR.9
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chil...a-PR9/327707/L
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_A-37_Dragonfly
Off thread - but to close Langley's comment......
I worked under Woodward in 82 on Hermes.
I worked under the "Sandy" that I think he refers to in RAFG 92 until he left in 93 and RAFG became 2 Gp.
Different characters in every way.
During my arrival interview at RAFG as a new Stn Cdr, the 1* of the day (great bloke who will not take much identifying) and who was directly in my link to the 2* (not great) and 3* (worse - Sandy) told me that if I treated his (Sandy's) visit to my Station as if it was a Royal Visit, then I would get it about right.
Great advice - and he was spot-on.
I like Marmite - but, Langley, your apparent admiration for the man is not held commonly.
Never mind the curtains - what about all the china from the Berlin house??
I worked under Woodward in 82 on Hermes.
I worked under the "Sandy" that I think he refers to in RAFG 92 until he left in 93 and RAFG became 2 Gp.
Different characters in every way.
During my arrival interview at RAFG as a new Stn Cdr, the 1* of the day (great bloke who will not take much identifying) and who was directly in my link to the 2* (not great) and 3* (worse - Sandy) told me that if I treated his (Sandy's) visit to my Station as if it was a Royal Visit, then I would get it about right.
Great advice - and he was spot-on.
I like Marmite - but, Langley, your apparent admiration for the man is not held commonly.
Never mind the curtains - what about all the china from the Berlin house??
Last edited by ex-fast-jets; 10th May 2020 at 18:07.
Thread Starter
Hi Teej,
In his own book, Snow says Punta Arenas, and that's what he told me a couple of weeks ago when I spoke to him on the phone.
He also saw the RAF roundels and fin flashes.
He knew what a Canberra looked like, and knew they had different noses - either like the Rhodesian ones, or like the South African aircraft. And his cameraman would NEVER have mistaken an A-37 for a Canberra PR9.
In his own book, Snow says Punta Arenas, and that's what he told me a couple of weeks ago when I spoke to him on the phone.
He also saw the RAF roundels and fin flashes.
He knew what a Canberra looked like, and knew they had different noses - either like the Rhodesian ones, or like the South African aircraft. And his cameraman would NEVER have mistaken an A-37 for a Canberra PR9.
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And then there were the high alt recon pictures of Stanley they tried to pass off as taken by a Harrier
https://www.militaryimages.net/media...islands.84666/
https://www.militaryimages.net/media...islands.84666/