New Flying Badges

[trim it out]

Originally Posted by Chugalug2

With military pax you now have crew and pax from the same Service or possibly other Services. Either way they will hold ranks that may be less than, equal to, or exceed those of the CC managing an emergency. Previous discussions here suggested that problems would emanate from 'squaddies'.

Where are you going with this? Are you trying to say a military passenger would try and pull rank on a member of the cabin crew in an emergency (highly unlikely, people respect the difference between rank and authority in my experience in war and peace)? How does this support your argument of making CC Aircrew anyway? If someone wants to argue with CC they aren't going to be interested in their crew status.

[heights good]

Originally Posted by Chugalug2

hg:-


You could be just one of 290 others, it could be at night, the cabin full of smoke with flames burning their way into the cabin and up to half the exits thus unavailable. But you'll be good, right? At the cost presumably of the other pax in your way, coming in the opposite direction, packing out the remaining exits and slides (are they deployed properly anyway, and who deployed them anyway?). The CC of course would be useless and have to be rescued by those like you who are orders of magnitude more qualified. Pity about the majority who died because of the lack of direction by qualified aircrew getting the aircraft fully evacuated, but at least you are good!

I've no idea what your day job is, but I repeat you would not be welcome on my aircraft and, yes, my word would be final!

I'm suggesting that the genesis of a fully constituted air force crew being jointly manned by aircrew was war. Destroy that notion and you open up a can of worms. With pax attitudes like yours a major in-flight emergency could quickly become needlessly un-survivable. That is where the difference between civil and military pax a/c cuts in. Civvie pax may well be orders of magnitude more qualified than the CC but will usually do as instructed in an emergency. With military pax you now have crew and pax from the same Service or possibly other Services. Either way they will hold ranks that may be less than, equal to, or exceed those of the CC managing an emergency. Previous discussions here suggested that problems would emanate from 'squaddies'. I am beginning to think that the real problems might come from opinionated aircrew such as your self :-

'Non-Traditional' Aircrew

especially as comments similar to your own were posted there.

As to the selection standards required, the courses imposed, ranks awarded; all that is up to the operator, ie the RAF. As to the regulator, the MAA, every word is gospel, or bloody well should be!

You have a great point.

I might point this out to Airbus,

They could perhaps have slides that automatically deploy when the doors open and the cabin crew can "disarm and cross-check" before opening inadvertently....

Oh, oh, oh I have a great idea, what about putting some "lighting on the floor that will lead you to an exit" and when you get to an exit it is another colour, genius or what?!

"In the unlikely event of landing on water" we could have life jackets to hand, say under passenger seats and as an added bonus they "have a light and a whistle for attracting attention!"

Hhhhmmmm how do we get around the fire over the wing dilemma.....? I got it, install transparent panels that you can look through before opening the door.

thats a lot to think of, pax should probably be briefed on this before every flight as it is important stuff. Why dont we have a video that could be shown before every flight! Man, I am a genius.

I might pitch this on Dragons Den...

As an aside, your argument has now shifted from CC being aircrew to justifying CC which do provide an essential role.

Enjoy wallowing in your inferiority complex. Your viewpoint is nonsensical.

Have an amazing day....

Just in case you want to apply for aircrew https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/apply

[alfred_the_great]

Originally Posted by Chugalug2

In the meantime the RAF is once again out of kilter with its own Air Regulator, a position that seems to fit quite comfortably in some peoples minds but graphically illustrates the powerlessness of the MAA. A Regulator should regulate and have its Regulations fully complied with. Unless and until UK Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation is made outwith and independent of the MOD and of each other, avoidable accidents and needless deaths will continue to happen.

Chugalug2 - I’d be grateful on some guidance. You seem convinced that the MAA have defined Cabin Crew as Aircrew. That prompted me to go to the MAA website, and check the RAs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...y-publications

The RA defining Aircrew is relatively simple to find, it is RA 2100 series, that defines “Aircrew qualifications and competency”.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...and-competency

RA 2101 is the RA that defines what an Aircrew is, and says

Entitlement to Conduct Flying Duties
2101(1) To fly or operate ►Air Systems governed by the MRP,◄ Aircrew shall be qualified.
Entitlement to Conduct Flying Duties
1. Aviation Duty Holders (ADH) and Accountable Managers (Military Flying) (AM(MF)) should promulgate in orders the criteria for the award, or recognition of Aircrew qualifications.
2. UK Military Registered Air Systems. In order to fly or operate UK military registered Air Systems, Aircrew should be qualified in accordance with (iaw) at least one of the following criteria:
a. ►They are◄ in possession of, or ►have◄ previously been awarded, ►one of the following◄:
(1) The appropriate UK military flying badge►1◄;
(2) A UK military or AM(MF) approved Remotely Piloted Air System
(RPAS) pilot/operator qualification;
(3) A UK military or AM(MF) approved non-Pilot Aircrew qualification. b. ►They are◄ undergoing an ADH or AM(MF) approved training course
and the duties to be authorized form part of ►the◄ course of training; c. ►They are◄ part of a recognized foreign exchange programme
approved by single-Service chiefs;
d. ►They possess the◄ appropriate civil licence; ►◄
e. ►They are in possession of, or have previously been awarded, a foreign
military qualification that has been approved as equivalent by the ADH or AM(MF).◄

Thus, by the RA, the non-award of a Flying Badge for a role means that that individual is not Aircrew.

It goes on to say

Entitlement to Conduct Flying Duties
4. ►Definition of Aircrew can be found in MAA022.◄
5. A UK military flying badge ►◄ is awarded by a single-Service Approving
Officer following achievement of an appropriate standard on an approved training course ►iaw Queen’s Regulations3.◄
6. A UK military or AM(MF) approved RPAS pilot/operator or non-Pilot Aircrew qualification is awarded by a single-Service Approving Officer or AM(MF) following achievement of an appropriate standard on an approved training course.
7. Approved Training Course. For the purposes of this Regulation an approved training course is one that has been assured by an Independent Body that is suitably qualified and experienced, prior to overall approval by the appropriate ADH or AM(MF).
8. Flying Instruction. Where an approved training course leads to award of a flying badge ►◄, RPAS or non-Pilot Aircrew qualification, Aircrew must be given flying instruction by an appropriately Qualified Aircrew Instructor (Qualified AI), ►iaw RA 21254.◄
Certificate of Qualification on Type
2101(2) To fly or operate ►Air Systems governed by the MRP,◄ Aircrew shall be in possession of a valid Certificate of Qualification on Type (CQT) for that type.
Certificate of Qualification on Type
9. A CQT should only be awarded on completion of an approved training course by ►one of the following◄:
a. ►The appropriate◄ ADH;
b. ►The appropriate◄ AM(MF) or Flight Operations post-holder; ►◄
c. ►An appropriately◄ Qualified AI, empowered by orders.
10. A CQT should be documented in a formal record, such as an Aircrew logbook.

Thus, to cross check, MAA 02 (the master glossary) says

https://assets.publishing.service.go...02_Issue_8.pdf

Persons having duties concerned either with operating or the flying of Air Systems or with passengers or cargo when in flight.

Perhaps some mild confusion here - two different versions of what aircrew might mean, however, RA 2340 Supernumerary Crew and Passengers does help here

https://assets.publishing.service.go...40_Issue_6.pdf

Definitions Relevant to this RA
1. For the purpose of the authorization of flights on military registered Air Systems, the following definitions apply:
a. Aircrew. Persons authorized to conduct duties concerned with: operating or flying the Air System or; with the management of Passengers or cargo when in flight; and who are also qualified in accordance with (iaw)
RA 21011.
b. Supernumerary Crew. A Supernumerary Crewmember is an individual, military or civilian, who is employed on an Air System and authorized to carry out a specific duty (that does not require an Aircrew qualification) while in flight or ground taxiing. This specific duty is to have an active role in achieving the purpose of the authorized flight and may involve the operation of Air System equipment/systems or authorized Equipment Not Basic to the Air System (ENBAS)2 under the supervision of the Air System’s Aircrew.

It seems to me that having not met the definition of Aircrew IAW RA2101, that someone such as Cabin Crew (or Aeromedical personnel etc) sit firmly under the banner of “Supernumerary Crew”.

Even more helpfully, the MAA02 also defines Supernumerary Crew

Supernumerary Crew are not classed as passengers. A supernumerary crewmember is an individual, Military or civilian, who is temporarily attached to an air system crew for the purpose of carrying out a specific duty not involved with flying/operating the air system, as authorised by the appropriate aviation duty holder or accountable manager (military flying).

Given all that, unless you can point me to a part of the RAs I’ve missed, I’d suggest that

a - the Cabin Crew, whilst vitally important, are not Aircrew, and therefore not entitled to a Flying Badge.
b - that the RAF is acting entirely within the guidance of the MAA, and thus operating as you consistently demand.

[heights good]

Originally Posted by alfred_the_great

Chugalug2 - I’d be grateful on some guidance. You seem convinced that the MAA have defined Cabin Crew as Aircrew. That prompted me to go to the MAA website, and check the RAs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...y-publications

The RA defining Aircrew is relatively simple to find, it is RA 2100 series, that defines “Aircrew qualifications and competency”.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...and-competency

RA 2101 is the RA that defines what an Aircrew is, and says



Thus, by the RA, the non-award of a Flying Badge for a role means that that individual is not Aircrew.

It goes on to say



Thus, to cross check, MAA 02 (the master glossary) says

https://assets.publishing.service.go...02_Issue_8.pdf



Perhaps some mild confusion here - two different versions of what aircrew might mean, however, RA 2340 Supernumerary Crew and Passengers does help here

https://assets.publishing.service.go...40_Issue_6.pdf



It seems to me that having not met the definition of Aircrew IAW RA2101, that someone such as Cabin Crew (or Aeromedical personnel etc) sit firmly under the banner of “Supernumerary Crew”.

Even more helpfully, the MAA02 also defines Supernumerary Crew



Given all that, unless you can point me to a part of the RAs I’ve missed, I’d suggest that

a - the Cabin Crew, whilst vitally important, are not Aircrew, and therefore not entitled to a Flying Badge.
b - that the RAF is acting entirely within the guidance of the MAA, and thus operating as you consistently demand.

Awkward....

I guess that is that argument put to bed....

if Carlsberg did Aviation Authorities, for everyone else there is https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/roles/roles-finder/aircrew

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by Herod

heights good: I was out of this thread, but your attitude demands a response. I assume, in the event you were involved as a passenger in a civil aircraft crash, you wouldn't want any assistance from the cabin CREW? After all, they are just"trolley dollies"

As to your comment that you could operate a C17, Typhoon or Chinook, would your other user name be Walter Mitty?

Is he still going on and on and on?

As mere occasional SLF I do like the idea of a constituted CREW if at all possible.

[Wensleydale]

At the end of the day, perhaps we should perhaps look at our own achievements and pride in our flying badges and try not to belittle other people who also have the same badge but received it by a different route. I know what I did to get mine - who cares about what everyone else did - it doesn't matter.

[Chugalug2]

ATG, Welcome to the fray! You have researched the issue most assiduously and I commend your effort but must sadly, though perhaps predictably, politely disagree with your conclusions. The difference between aircrew and supernumerary crew is that the former is required to operate the aircraft normally, to include CC with passengers (or without CC if just Freight/Empty/AAR), whereas supernumerary crew are not. Thus PJIs are required to drop Paras but are not required simply to fly them (and yes, I know they are Honorary Aircrew anyway). Ditto Despatch Crews for Supply Dropping. Just positioning the kit they aren't needed but to drop it they are. Ditto Gnd Engs for down route support etc.

Of course RAF CC are not said to be Aircrew, I know that and it is what most of this thread has occupied itself with. I still insist though that they are Aircrew by definition (and thank you for the link!) :-

Aircrew.... Persons having duties concerned either with operating or the flying of Air Systems or with passengers or cargo when in flight.

Ipso Facto as Anthony Hancock might say!

[alfred_the_great]

Originally Posted by Chugalug2

ATG, Welcome to the fray! You have researched the issue most assiduously and I commend your effort but must sadly, though perhaps predictably, politely disagree with your conclusions. The difference between aircrew and supernumerary crew is that the former is required to operate the aircraft normally, to include CC with passengers (or without CC if just Freight/Empty/AAR), whereas supernumerary crew are not. Thus PJIs are required to drop Paras but are not required simply to fly them (and yes, I know they are Honorary Aircrew anyway). Ditto Despatch Crews for Supply Dropping. Just positioning the kit they aren't needed but to drop it they are. Ditto Gnd Engs for down route support etc.

Of course RAF CC are not said to be Aircrew, I know that and it is what most of this thread has occupied itself with. I still insist though that they are Aircrew by definition (and thank you for the link!) :-



Ipso Facto as Anthony Hancock might say!

no - wrong.

That is not the entire definition of Aircrew. And you know it.

I suspect you you need to stop tilting at this windmill.

[622]

Originally Posted by Wensleydale

...back to the badges.
Who is the preliminary flying badge aimed at?

[muppetofthenorth]

Originally Posted by 622

...back to the badges.
Who is the preliminary flying badge aimed at?

University Air Squadrons

[622]

Aha, thanks for the reply....another school day for 622!

[Asturias56]

who would have ever thought that such strong feelings could be held by some about aircrew? I have learnt a great deal here ................

[pr00ne]

How about calling them drivers, and conductors? You know, like bus crews...

[Chugalug2]

Nerves having clearly been touched Asturius! At least this dichotomy has been brought out into the open now.

ATG:-

no - wrong.
That is not the entire definition of Aircrew. And you know it.
I suspect you you need to stop tilting at this windmill.

Are the windmills again! Never far away. Your previous post requested guidance but it seems you need none as your mind, like others here, is clearly already made up. So I won't offer you guidance but simply repeat that RAF CC are part of a basic crew when passengers are carried. When those passengers require additional specialist attention, such as on casevac flights, then supernumerary crew (in this case probably RAF Medical Branch and PMRAFNS personnel) are added to that basic crew. You still need the core basic crew defined by the MAA as Aircrew (though not it seems by the RAF). That's what I know ATG!

[ExAscoteer2]

Originally Posted by 622

...back to the badges.
Who is the preliminary flying badge aimed at?

In my day, if you qualified for the PFB you went straight to Cranditz on the Short, 75hr course (to BHT pre-streaming).
However, you couldn't wear the PFB once you left the UAS.

[heights good]

Originally Posted by Chugalug2

Nerves having clearly been touched Asturius! At least this dichotomy has been brought out into the open now.

ATG:-


Are the windmills again! Never far away. Your previous post requested guidance but it seems you need none as your mind, like others here, is clearly already made up. So I won't offer you guidance but simply repeat that RAF CC are part of a basic crew when passengers are carried. When those passengers require additional specialist attention, such as on casevac flights, then supernumerary crew (in this case probably RAF Medical Branch and PMRAFNS personnel) are added to that basic crew. You still need the core basic crew defined by the MAA as Aircrew (though not it seems by the RAF). That's what I know ATG!

Except.... the MAA DOESNT define CC as aircrew, scroll up and your entire smoking gun was blown out of the water.

CC are a role fit.

[Herod]

CC are a role fit.

I hate to mention this, but so are pilots.

[heights good]

Originally Posted by heights good

Except.... the MAA DOESNT define CC as aircrew, scroll up and your entire smoking gun was blown out of the water.

CC are a role fit.

Not correct I am afraid. You may have been out of the military flying game too long.

A role fit is something that is fitted or used for a specific role i.e. Aeromed, Para, pax, Airdrop, gunnery etc.

ALL aircraft need pilots to fly them REGARDLESS of the role

[Finningley Boy]

Originally Posted by pr00ne

But what about the Air Stewards?

How about a Coffee pot encompassed by Laurels with a single wing?

FB

PS

Or in keeping with the preference for initials, how about STD surrounded by laurels and single wing?

[Foxtrot-Yankee]

Originally Posted by Chugalug2

So I won't offer you guidance but simply repeat that RAF CC are part of a basic crew when passengers are carried. When those passengers require additional specialist attention, such as on casevac flights, then supernumerary crew (in this case probably RAF Medical Branch and PMRAFNS personnel) are added to that basic crew. You still need the core basic crew defined by the MAA as Aircrew (though not it seems by the RAF).

How many CC are required on a Voyager AAR sortie? Rhetorical question, it’s zero. When passengers are carried, as they require extra specialist attention, supernumerary crew (in this case RAF air and ground steward) are added to that basic crew. You still need the core basic crew defined by the MAA as Aircrew, which as pointed out above, does not include CC.