RAF Pilot Trg Times
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bedford
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAF Pilot Trg Times
Guys. My son 17 is now awaiting his A levels post Corvid19 epic. His plan for many years has been to join the RAF as a pilot. With the changes to the pilot training pipeline, hopefully shortening, can anyone give me any informed estimate as to the current time taken from leaving IOT to Sqn for FJ, ME and Rotary pilots. Thanks.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In the State of Denial
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 144 Likes
on
28 Posts
Currently around 7 years to the frontline for FJ, a little quicker for ME & rotary but all streams facing multiple & extended holds. Things should be getting better through the use of alternatives such as L3 for ME training until MFTS can ratchet up their throughput. However, much of the training system will be currently paused due to Coronavirus so what effect that has in the medium to long term I don’t think anyone can really say.
Helo425,
Whatever the timeline tell him to stick with it. He will not be disappointed with the breadth of flying that is on offer, certainly to the FJ platforms at the moment. I held for a long time during which I got paid and did some fantastic stuff, he can do the same.
Cheers,
Mr Vice.
Whatever the timeline tell him to stick with it. He will not be disappointed with the breadth of flying that is on offer, certainly to the FJ platforms at the moment. I held for a long time during which I got paid and did some fantastic stuff, he can do the same.
Cheers,
Mr Vice.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m with Mr Vice, 6 years from start to combat ready. Met my best friends, had so much fun, flew 3 fast jet types, flew from the deck, day and night. Made mistakes, learnt to lead, got to do some amazing things both in the air and on the ground and best of all, worked with and for some of the very finest people. Still in, still love it.
Yup, I’m with nozzle lover and Mr Vice too. 
Pre CV-19, the holds were starting to come down where those joining now might go from ‘zero to hero’ in less than 5 years. Just what CV-19 means now for recruiting times, with OASC currently closed and flying training at reduced rates, remains to be seen. I expect a 4-6 month slip on times. The 7 years for someone joining right now, is still very unlikely. Remember, those that have just taken 7 years joined in 2012/2013 when we were just recovering from one of the most brutal, austerity driven, defence reviews ever. We made 170 student pilots redundant in 2011 following SDSR10, and those lucky enough to escape redundancy held for 2+ years before starting.
All parts of Pilot UKMFTS are now working - some slightly below full capacity - but they are working. There are also moves afoot to increase capacity with the enhancements authorised from SDSR15. So, if I were a betting man right now, IOT to the Front Line for a FJ stude should be possible inside 5 years and getting closer to 4 for some.
For rotary, the passage hasn’t been smooth either. But it is now much better and getting better each day. The serviceability of the Juno is well above that expected. I would guess around 4 years for a Rotary mate.
For ME then there are now 2 pathways - one via MFTS and the other via an outsource route. For someone joining now, I would expect 3 years or maybe less if they are lucky.
It isn’t perfect, but there are improvements all of the time in all streams. There is also much work being done for further improvements in capacity.
Pre CV-19, the holds were starting to come down where those joining now might go from ‘zero to hero’ in less than 5 years. Just what CV-19 means now for recruiting times, with OASC currently closed and flying training at reduced rates, remains to be seen. I expect a 4-6 month slip on times. The 7 years for someone joining right now, is still very unlikely. Remember, those that have just taken 7 years joined in 2012/2013 when we were just recovering from one of the most brutal, austerity driven, defence reviews ever. We made 170 student pilots redundant in 2011 following SDSR10, and those lucky enough to escape redundancy held for 2+ years before starting.
All parts of Pilot UKMFTS are now working - some slightly below full capacity - but they are working. There are also moves afoot to increase capacity with the enhancements authorised from SDSR15. So, if I were a betting man right now, IOT to the Front Line for a FJ stude should be possible inside 5 years and getting closer to 4 for some.
For rotary, the passage hasn’t been smooth either. But it is now much better and getting better each day. The serviceability of the Juno is well above that expected. I would guess around 4 years for a Rotary mate.
For ME then there are now 2 pathways - one via MFTS and the other via an outsource route. For someone joining now, I would expect 3 years or maybe less if they are lucky.
It isn’t perfect, but there are improvements all of the time in all streams. There is also much work being done for further improvements in capacity.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree, definitely worth the wait despite the time currently taken to reach the front line. Besides, if you want to do something exciting in aviation and have job security to 55+, meet lifelong friends and be part of a great organisation that's admired, a career as a RAF pilot is hard to beat - the airline industry doesn't offer all that, and certainly not now! And you'd need to spend £100k to train with the risk of discovering you've no aptitude.
Having an an ambition at 17 is uncommon. Encourage him to the full but do work with him to design an acceptable fall back plan and help manage his expectations - competition is fierce and I suspect will be even tougher until the airline industry recovers.
Having an an ambition at 17 is uncommon. Encourage him to the full but do work with him to design an acceptable fall back plan and help manage his expectations - competition is fierce and I suspect will be even tougher until the airline industry recovers.
Having joined and served with LJ my considered professional opinion is that I have no idea what the next few years will look like.
Good to see such optimism but the 'most brutal, austerity driven, defence review ever' followed a set of economic metrics that now look like small change compared to the current and enduring economic impact of CV-19. Anyone making a prediction for the next few years probably has cabin fever.
Having joined and served with LJ my considered professional opinion is that I have no idea what the next few years will look like.
Having joined and served with LJ my considered professional opinion is that I have no idea what the next few years will look like.
[Please don’t start with the “we don’t want those who only want job security” stuff. If people who wouldn’t otherwise have contemplated a military career are encouraged to do so by economic circumstances, like what they see, and *get through the selection process* then I would be very pleased to have them. It might even find us some talent that would previously have gone elsewhere: people who aren’t dazzled by the immediate attractions of the job and have a long-term outlook. The kind of people we want as future leaders...]
Last edited by Easy Street; 2nd May 2020 at 10:41.
[Please don’t start with the “we don’t want those who only want job security” stuff. If people who wouldn’t otherwise have contemplated a military career are encouraged to do so by economic circumstances, like what they see, and [u]get through the selection process then I would be very pleased to have them. It might even find us some talent that would normally have gone elsewhere: people who see beyond the immediate attractions of the job and have a long-term outlook. The kind of people we want as future leaders...]
I was a late comer to military aviation and by no means one of the "wanted to fly before I could walk" types. If I didn't get on the course I'd have got out without even a second thought to aviation as a career.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I totally disagree with Mr Vice and his recommendation to stick with a 7 year training system.
Firstly, there is no breadth to the flying. The modern FJ choices are Typhoon or F-35. I’ll take F-35 first; expect very little live flying, bouncing of currencies to remain competent and the prospect of 6 months on a boat.
Typhoon prospects are only a little better; the probability is that you’ll be based in Elgin, 70% of live flying will be compressed into a 3 month window whilst flying out of Cyprus, time away from home will be circa 5-6months per year.
This is all after waiting 7 years to get there! You’ll be starting an OCU approaching age 30, without flying pay (RR(P)), living in ramshackle accomodation, having held in pointless jobs for the majority of your ‘career’. Ok, you may have got to go to Ski Champs once or twice in that time, but is it worth it?
There is a reason why both F-35 and Typhoon have major manning issues! It would have been unheard of 20yrs ago for a 1st tourist to volunteer to go to Valley to get away from the Front Line! Most leavers are mid-thirties and opt for alternative careers after minimal time on the Front Line. That said, there is a small number who would still recommend it.
Firstly, there is no breadth to the flying. The modern FJ choices are Typhoon or F-35. I’ll take F-35 first; expect very little live flying, bouncing of currencies to remain competent and the prospect of 6 months on a boat.
Typhoon prospects are only a little better; the probability is that you’ll be based in Elgin, 70% of live flying will be compressed into a 3 month window whilst flying out of Cyprus, time away from home will be circa 5-6months per year.
This is all after waiting 7 years to get there! You’ll be starting an OCU approaching age 30, without flying pay (RR(P)), living in ramshackle accomodation, having held in pointless jobs for the majority of your ‘career’. Ok, you may have got to go to Ski Champs once or twice in that time, but is it worth it?
There is a reason why both F-35 and Typhoon have major manning issues! It would have been unheard of 20yrs ago for a 1st tourist to volunteer to go to Valley to get away from the Front Line! Most leavers are mid-thirties and opt for alternative careers after minimal time on the Front Line. That said, there is a small number who would still recommend it.
Agreed, it is not what is used to be.
I would not recommend a military aviation career to any kids I might have in the future.
There are far too many cuts to resources, hours, allowances, pensions and pay.
There is an overwhelming cadre of poor leaders consisting of 'yes men' who are trying to get promoted, irrespective of what is the right thing to do; not many Captain Crozier's in today's RAF.
The plague of non-stop tick-chasing pointless things like DLE (corruption, display screen equipment and unconscious bias?! To name a few...) it is depressing.
All platforms have a lack of hours, quality training and breadth of training. There are just not enough hours available and basic skills are just about practiced enough to remain competent
The woeful lack of experience means the dilution rates of almost all fleets are WAY worse than 10 years ago. There are instructors being recommended who are not above-average, 500 hours on type and minimal operational experience.
The stat chasing and ton of ridiculous hoops to jump through for no benefit other than stats is the climate the modern RAF. It is feeding a machine but rarely transfers to real tangible front-line benefits.
Contractorisation is making day-to-day functions painful. This manifests itself in many ways such as C4I can't fix a printer and having to go through the SPOC to get a repair in 3 weeks. MODNet crashing continually, duty flights costs being twice what I can pay myself via the airlines website, MT unable to collect personnel, lack of flying clothing due to back-orders not being able to keep up with demand, poor equipment quality, Carillion sending joiners out for plumbing jobs etc
Housing and military buildings being in absolute disrepair and abysmally short of available maintenance slots or budget. JRs having no hot water for 2 months at a time, heating not functioning for a week during the winter, an overwhelming stench of sewerage in the mess for a week until a contractor can get around to repairing it.
Food within the mess being nothing but roadkill disguised as food. It is poor quality, unhealthy, over-priced and tiny portions that are in no way fit for a fighting force to consume.
Standards of entry are being lowered to levels that are unimaginable just a decade ago. Recruits are graduating despite failing fitness tests or meeting standards for numerous things.
And the list goes on and on and on....
I am generally a positive person, but I struggle to remain positive on the future of the RAF, it is basically in managed decline now with no way of rectifying it without HGUE changes.
Last edited by heights good; 2nd May 2020 at 20:34.
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Beer
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
heights good;
I admit that things are not perfect, but I would take this as a rant rather wide of reality.
We are well paid; there is still plenty of fun to be had; the flying’s great; the pension remains exceptional; our fleet is new and there is lots of worthwhile tasks to do. So if you are a nay-sayer pretty please leave and make way for those that can, will and do. Oh and best of luck in civ-street...
I admit that things are not perfect, but I would take this as a rant rather wide of reality.
We are well paid; there is still plenty of fun to be had; the flying’s great; the pension remains exceptional; our fleet is new and there is lots of worthwhile tasks to do. So if you are a nay-sayer pretty please leave and make way for those that can, will and do. Oh and best of luck in civ-street...
+1 to spindrier, to which I’d add that heights good’s gripes about red tape would be recognisable to many in civvy street, especially in large corporates - and none of them offer FJ flying, as far as I know anyway. The accommodation issues can’t be denied, but we are well enough paid to buy or rent if it’s that bothersome... again, try getting sympathy from a civvy for our monthly accommodation charges. As for the food, yes the core meal offerings are small and s***. Undeniably a disastrous decision to move away from the old system - but ‘old’ is very much the operative word now. Maybe pay extra for the enhanced options once in a while? You should see what corporate canteen charges are like...
Last edited by Easy Street; 3rd May 2020 at 11:23.
I agree, definitely worth the wait despite the time currently taken to reach the front line. Besides, if you want to do something exciting in aviation and have job security to 55+, meet lifelong friends and be part of a great organisation that's admired, a career as a RAF pilot is hard to beat - the airline industry doesn't offer all that, and certainly not now! And you'd need to spend £100k to train with the risk of discovering you've no aptitude.
Having an an ambition at 17 is uncommon. Encourage him to the full but do work with him to design an acceptable fall back plan and help manage his expectations - competition is fierce and I suspect will be even tougher until the airline industry recovers.
Having an an ambition at 17 is uncommon. Encourage him to the full but do work with him to design an acceptable fall back plan and help manage his expectations - competition is fierce and I suspect will be even tougher until the airline industry recovers.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rolling20, I can't disagree that making many young aircrew redundant in 2011 was really awful for them, and it was actually closer to 470 as I recall. Either way, a very short-sighted decision as it left a capability gap that the training system has since never been able to plug.
However, I still stand behind my advice as the decision in 2011 was unprecedented and unlikely to happen again, and compared to any other flying jobs right now a career in the military is definitely more attractive and likely to be more secure, subject to actually getting in of course.
And I'm sure that most if not all of those 'poor sods' made it in aviation one way or another, and no doubt some will be about to suffer the same fate again at the hands of failing airlines. No guarantees in this life.
However, I still stand behind my advice as the decision in 2011 was unprecedented and unlikely to happen again, and compared to any other flying jobs right now a career in the military is definitely more attractive and likely to be more secure, subject to actually getting in of course.
And I'm sure that most if not all of those 'poor sods' made it in aviation one way or another, and no doubt some will be about to suffer the same fate again at the hands of failing airlines. No guarantees in this life.
If things continue to deteriorate in the airline industry, standby for a wave of recently left rejoiners, many who left with valuable instructional and examining qualifications. Will the military welcome them with open arms in preference to ab initio aircrew, further extending the into productive service times?
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If things continue to deteriorate in the airline industry, standby for a wave of recently left rejoiners, many who left with valuable instructional and examining qualifications. Will the military welcome them with open arms in preference to ab initio aircrew, further extending the into productive service times?
Last edited by Easy Street; 3rd May 2020 at 11:59.
It definitely wasn't unprecedented - anything can happen at any time when the government of the day decides to remove entire capabilities.
For instance, the "Withdrawal from East of Suez" decision, cancellation of the F-111K, transfer of the nuclear deterrent to the RN and decision to rationalize UK-based command HQs from 8 to 4 all combined in a very short period around 1968 taking the RAF from 125,000 to less than 75,000.
One of the single hardest hit areas - in the 100s - was Canberra aircrew. I remember a former sqn ldr sqn cdr - a "top notch" guy who had been ADC to CinC Fighter Command - telling me their notice of being made redundant was a nominal roll posted on the Officers' Mess noticeboard (without any prior discussion) !
So, very experienced type-specific sqn cdrs, flt cdrs, QWIs and QFIs were gone - because there would be either no future HQ ground role or cockpit slots for them on another fleet - even if conversion was considered worthwhile at their age.
Another example from my own family history, in the early 1950s the government decided to get rid of the vast majority of the Royal Artillery's anti-aircraft gun capability - dozens of regiments - and this resulted in 450 officers in the rank of major in the Royal Artillery getting a choice of either transfer to a support arm or redundancy.
The weasel-worded spin put on the decisions by politicions don't change - see the example here:
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...ice#column_794
Extract from above Under-Secretary of State for the RAF - March 1968:
"It is my impression that the problem of redundancy in connection with the rundown of the Services gets far too much emphasis. As the House knows, amongst the measures announced in January was provision for an eventual reduction in Service manpower beyond the 75,000 forecast in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy in 1967 (Command 3357) and for the reduction to be spread over a shorter time." "Although the manpower reduction forecast is substantial, it is important to get the matter in proper perspective. One must remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that over 10,000 men leave the Royal Air Force on normal exit each year and that by 1973 some 50 per cent. of the men at present serving in the Royal Air Force will have left through normal wastage. It will be possible to take advantage of this turnover in keeping redundancy to the minimum required to preserve a proper age/rank and trade balance."
Serve long enough and you witness the unthinkable happen - several times over !
For instance, the "Withdrawal from East of Suez" decision, cancellation of the F-111K, transfer of the nuclear deterrent to the RN and decision to rationalize UK-based command HQs from 8 to 4 all combined in a very short period around 1968 taking the RAF from 125,000 to less than 75,000.
One of the single hardest hit areas - in the 100s - was Canberra aircrew. I remember a former sqn ldr sqn cdr - a "top notch" guy who had been ADC to CinC Fighter Command - telling me their notice of being made redundant was a nominal roll posted on the Officers' Mess noticeboard (without any prior discussion) !
So, very experienced type-specific sqn cdrs, flt cdrs, QWIs and QFIs were gone - because there would be either no future HQ ground role or cockpit slots for them on another fleet - even if conversion was considered worthwhile at their age.
Another example from my own family history, in the early 1950s the government decided to get rid of the vast majority of the Royal Artillery's anti-aircraft gun capability - dozens of regiments - and this resulted in 450 officers in the rank of major in the Royal Artillery getting a choice of either transfer to a support arm or redundancy.
The weasel-worded spin put on the decisions by politicions don't change - see the example here:
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...ice#column_794
Extract from above Under-Secretary of State for the RAF - March 1968:
"It is my impression that the problem of redundancy in connection with the rundown of the Services gets far too much emphasis. As the House knows, amongst the measures announced in January was provision for an eventual reduction in Service manpower beyond the 75,000 forecast in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy in 1967 (Command 3357) and for the reduction to be spread over a shorter time." "Although the manpower reduction forecast is substantial, it is important to get the matter in proper perspective. One must remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that over 10,000 men leave the Royal Air Force on normal exit each year and that by 1973 some 50 per cent. of the men at present serving in the Royal Air Force will have left through normal wastage. It will be possible to take advantage of this turnover in keeping redundancy to the minimum required to preserve a proper age/rank and trade balance."
Serve long enough and you witness the unthinkable happen - several times over !
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 3rd May 2020 at 19:22.
