VC10 quickie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crete
I don't know how long the runway is on Crete, but in 97 we flew out on route to Oman in a K3 fully tanked up 78 ton with a GE +4 and Jag GC on board and Dick Knight at the helm I swear the mains were on the piano keys whe we eventually got in the air. I was on the jump seat and my then short life flash before my eyes, Oh didn't I mention the bloody big hill/mountain at the end of airfield
Resident Fairy
Resident Fairy
I don't know how long the runway is on Crete, but in 97 we flew out on route to Oman in a K3 fully tanked up 78 ton with a GE +4 and Jag GC on board and Dick Knight at the helm I swear the mains were on the piano keys whe we eventually got in the air. I was on the jump seat and my then short life flash before my eyes, Oh didn't I mention the bloody big hill/mountain at the end of airfield
Resident Fairy
Resident Fairy
According to Aerad for April 1996, figures for Heraklion (LGIR), 115 ft amsl, longest runway 09/27 declared distances as follows (slope not stated):
09 TORA/ASDA/TODA 8990 ft, LDA 7415 ft;
27 ditto, LDA 8990 ft.
"When jet barrier raised all distances except LDA 09 reduced by 984 ft."
Or could this be further west at Khania (Souda) LGSA?
Last edited by Chris Scott; 7th Apr 2020 at 17:44. Reason: Last sentence added.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,866
Received 2,816 Likes
on
1,200 Posts
Resident Fairy
Ex Ten Sootie..
Hi ExAscoteer2,
Thanks for decoding that stuff!
This thread has produced so many anecdotes worthy of discussion, but the following one has to be top of the list...
On a personal note: probably in common with many other pilots, the first time I saw A4O-AB on the ground at Brooklands was from the air, One hazy evening, over a year after your remarkable landing, our new A320 fleet having recently migrated bases from Gatwick to Heathrow, we were being vectored off Biggin R/H downwind for an easterly landing at LHR. Suddenly, the unmistakable shape of a grounded VC10 came into view, passing under the nose. For me, the VC10 was five jet-types earlier. I'd heard that someone had parked a Ten back at the factory, but it wasn't until after seeing it that I learned it was the former G-ASIX, originally BUA's second VC10 after its sister ship, G-ASIW. I'd last flown it FNA/ROB/FNA/LGW, a night flight in the late September of 1974 with Capt Mike Powell just before it was sold to the Sultan.
3500 ft seems really short for a landing, so I've looked at the Type 1103 Ops Manual graph for "Landing distance required - Alternate aerodrome". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I speculate that the VIP config would make for a considerably lower Basic Operating Weight than the 69 tonnes I remember from our mixed F/Y passenger config with all those heavy seats. With just 3 flight crew, 2 passengers and no catering, I'm guessing the Dry Operating Weight might have been - say - 65 tonnes or so? Fuel-wise on landing, I imagine you'd have wanted enough fuel for a G/A and second approach, plus a diversion to Farnborough or Heathrow and about 30 mins holding? That would be about 5 tonnes, so the landing weight might have been the lowest figure on the graph - 70,000 kg. Using still air at a tad above sea-level and zero slope, that gives a landing distance required of 4850 ft.
However, the graph probably assumes a height of 50 ft over the threshold. Had you crossed it at 20 ft on a 3-degree slope, you'd have saved about 600 ft, reducing the figure to 4250 ft. A 10 kt headwind component would reduce it by 400 ft to 3850 ft, but I doubt you would have had that advantage. The dry runway distances don't allow for the reverse thrust you used (on engines 1 and 4), but how much difference does that make on a short runway? 3500 ft sounds challenging, Captain!
Thanks for decoding that stuff!
This thread has produced so many anecdotes worthy of discussion, but the following one has to be top of the list...
[...] I was the one who flew the Sultan of Oman's Royal Flight VC10 A4O-AB into the Brooklands Museum in July 1987.
The runway gets shorter every time I'm asked to tell the tale about how long the Brooklands runway actually was! Give or take a bit for my memory lapse after some 33 years, it was between 3,300 ft and 3,500 ft.
[...] At Brooklands we were ultra light with minimal fuel, having only flown from Heathrow via Lasham and Farnborough that day and had just a couple of pax on board, so we were virtually empty.
We had the lines painted the week before and the aim was to Spot-Land our touch down between the two. In the event the rear bogies straddled the first line and, using full reverse thrust with relatively light braking, we actually had to put power on again reach the turn off taxiway in a dignified way at the far end of the runway.
[...] Peformance-A landing requirements for planning a landing assume that only idle reverse thrust is used but full braking is applied. It also assumes that all the flaps speedbrakes and are working normally. However we did actually use full reverse thrust and relatively light footbraking to avoid the brakes getting hot and the tyres then going bang half an hour after shutting down which would have been embarrassing on a day when we were in the 'limelight'. [...]
The runway gets shorter every time I'm asked to tell the tale about how long the Brooklands runway actually was! Give or take a bit for my memory lapse after some 33 years, it was between 3,300 ft and 3,500 ft.
[...] At Brooklands we were ultra light with minimal fuel, having only flown from Heathrow via Lasham and Farnborough that day and had just a couple of pax on board, so we were virtually empty.
We had the lines painted the week before and the aim was to Spot-Land our touch down between the two. In the event the rear bogies straddled the first line and, using full reverse thrust with relatively light braking, we actually had to put power on again reach the turn off taxiway in a dignified way at the far end of the runway.
[...] Peformance-A landing requirements for planning a landing assume that only idle reverse thrust is used but full braking is applied. It also assumes that all the flaps speedbrakes and are working normally. However we did actually use full reverse thrust and relatively light footbraking to avoid the brakes getting hot and the tyres then going bang half an hour after shutting down which would have been embarrassing on a day when we were in the 'limelight'. [...]
3500 ft seems really short for a landing, so I've looked at the Type 1103 Ops Manual graph for "Landing distance required - Alternate aerodrome". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I speculate that the VIP config would make for a considerably lower Basic Operating Weight than the 69 tonnes I remember from our mixed F/Y passenger config with all those heavy seats. With just 3 flight crew, 2 passengers and no catering, I'm guessing the Dry Operating Weight might have been - say - 65 tonnes or so? Fuel-wise on landing, I imagine you'd have wanted enough fuel for a G/A and second approach, plus a diversion to Farnborough or Heathrow and about 30 mins holding? That would be about 5 tonnes, so the landing weight might have been the lowest figure on the graph - 70,000 kg. Using still air at a tad above sea-level and zero slope, that gives a landing distance required of 4850 ft.
However, the graph probably assumes a height of 50 ft over the threshold. Had you crossed it at 20 ft on a 3-degree slope, you'd have saved about 600 ft, reducing the figure to 4250 ft. A 10 kt headwind component would reduce it by 400 ft to 3850 ft, but I doubt you would have had that advantage. The dry runway distances don't allow for the reverse thrust you used (on engines 1 and 4), but how much difference does that make on a short runway? 3500 ft sounds challenging, Captain!
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the subject of gear-down ferries, I can recall doing at least two of them in RAF VC10s. I'm sure they were partial gear-down ferries, one from USA to Brize, and one from Middle East to Brize, where one of the main gear legs was locked down due tech issues. As well as the airspeed limitation (270kts/M0.82 max?) the Middle East to Brize trip was complicated further by the requirement to avoid icing conditions. Not easy when it is winter, and night time, trying to find a route (largely 
) clear of cloud?
) clear of cloud?
Hi MrB! Wasn't Terry Waite's flight home from 4 years of captivity in a VC10 U/C down ferry flight?
(I admit to winding up one of HM's Bulldogs to a decent speed and turning in on the Spitfire which was holding waiting for his arrival - we had a brief play before a gentlemanly wing waggle and off our on separate ways. It might have been C***f S***k at the helm of the Spit!)
During my hellish 3 week holiday flying alternate days from Antalya and suffering the hardship of the Sheraton, we had a K2 and a K4. For some reason we kept getting the K4 with its wonderfully cool air conditioning, whilst the other crew sweated it out in the K2. Until the day they were due to fly the K4, which turned out to be National PKK Day or something, so DetCo Daisy ordered them to fly the K2 with its 'better defensive systems'. Yeah right - an RWR. After they'd taken off, I asked Daisy about the Int he must have received about the PKK being equipped with radar guided AAA as the RWR was bugger all use in detecting IR ManPads…ar$e!
Then the K4 went U/S with a gear snag, so a crew came out with another jet, before flying the K4 home on a U/C down ferry. Which meant that the other crew never did get to fly the K4!
(I admit to winding up one of HM's Bulldogs to a decent speed and turning in on the Spitfire which was holding waiting for his arrival - we had a brief play before a gentlemanly wing waggle and off our on separate ways. It might have been C***f S***k at the helm of the Spit!)
During my hellish 3 week holiday flying alternate days from Antalya and suffering the hardship of the Sheraton, we had a K2 and a K4. For some reason we kept getting the K4 with its wonderfully cool air conditioning, whilst the other crew sweated it out in the K2. Until the day they were due to fly the K4, which turned out to be National PKK Day or something, so DetCo Daisy ordered them to fly the K2 with its 'better defensive systems'. Yeah right - an RWR. After they'd taken off, I asked Daisy about the Int he must have received about the PKK being equipped with radar guided AAA as the RWR was bugger all use in detecting IR ManPads…ar$e!
Then the K4 went U/S with a gear snag, so a crew came out with another jet, before flying the K4 home on a U/C down ferry. Which meant that the other crew never did get to fly the K4!
Wasn't Terry Waite's flight home from 4 years of captivity in a VC10 U/C down ferry flight?
On the subject of K4s and undercarriage problems, there was a big incident at Filton during their conversions when one main leg kept getting stuck and wouldn’t lower.
As I understand it, after several unsuccessful rectification attempts, the crew refused to fly it until it was fixed. A decision was made to see what was causing it to stick and the main Actuator was disconnected. Unfortunately, when the U/C was operated, it failed to stick and it came down under its own weight and nearly knocked itself of the jacks. It caused considerable damage to the wing.
I don’t know if they ever found out the cause of the original problem.
As I understand it, after several unsuccessful rectification attempts, the crew refused to fly it until it was fixed. A decision was made to see what was causing it to stick and the main Actuator was disconnected. Unfortunately, when the U/C was operated, it failed to stick and it came down under its own weight and nearly knocked itself of the jacks. It caused considerable damage to the wing.
I don’t know if they ever found out the cause of the original problem.
Jackie Mann it was indeed!
Saintsman, using the free-fall procedure in that way without any damping or restraint indeed caused a lot of damage!
Saintsman, using the free-fall procedure in that way without any damping or restraint indeed caused a lot of damage!
That sounds dodgy, it reminds me of another..
10/08/1947 American Airlines
DC-4 El Paso, Texas
As a prank, a captain riding in the jump seat engaged the gust lock in flight. The command pilot, not knowing the gust lock had been engaged, rolled the elevator trim tab with no response. When the jump seat captain disengaged the gust lock, the aircraft went into into a steep dive, executed part of an outside roll and become inverted. Neither the command nor jump seat captain had seat belts on and they accidentally feathered No. 1, 2 and 4 engines when they hit the controls with their heads. No one realized it at the time but the feathering reduced power and allowed the co-pilot, who was strapped in, to pull out of the dive 350 feet from the ground.
10/08/1947 American Airlines
DC-4 El Paso, Texas
As a prank, a captain riding in the jump seat engaged the gust lock in flight. The command pilot, not knowing the gust lock had been engaged, rolled the elevator trim tab with no response. When the jump seat captain disengaged the gust lock, the aircraft went into into a steep dive, executed part of an outside roll and become inverted. Neither the command nor jump seat captain had seat belts on and they accidentally feathered No. 1, 2 and 4 engines when they hit the controls with their heads. No one realized it at the time but the feathering reduced power and allowed the co-pilot, who was strapped in, to pull out of the dive 350 feet from the ground.
"Turbulence!"
Line Training on the VC 10.
Awaiting our onward steed in Sri Lanka 1978 it was announced that it needed a heavy turbulence check which involved shipping a cherry picker by sea from India. After 3 days the aircraft was manoeuvred up to the terminal and engines used a ladder to inspect the tailplane. Whilst the accident report ( left several pax in hospital including a broken back) the true story was a fellow copilot u/t decided to route around a rocket cloud when the captain took over control and flew straight through it to show what a macho man he was.
Awaiting our onward steed in Sri Lanka 1978 it was announced that it needed a heavy turbulence check which involved shipping a cherry picker by sea from India. After 3 days the aircraft was manoeuvred up to the terminal and engines used a ladder to inspect the tailplane. Whilst the accident report ( left several pax in hospital including a broken back) the true story was a fellow copilot u/t decided to route around a rocket cloud when the captain took over control and flew straight through it to show what a macho man he was.
I don't think we ever got the answer to what the three items actually are. I'm still curious...
Had to go searching for the piccie to remind myself!!
The obvious one is the large Paxolin aerofoil shaped item (Slat separator), very useful as a 'French Curve' template. The second is the white painted support for the workbench which is a welded alumunium support 'box', one of a number which supported the 'Visual' model for the original 10 Sim - (large spider and robin on the approach!!) All these supports were sent for scrap when we changed from anologue to digital display - lovely engineering. The final item would be impossible to spot - the 'Jockey wheel' on the support arm in the foreground. This was turned from a largish bar of aircraft grade steel recovered from the Brize workshops scrap bin and kept for the last 30+ years " 'cos it'll come in handy." It originated, I suspect, from one of the hydraulic components. Even on my old Myford, it turned like slicing silk! There was a lot of quality in the 10!
The obvious one is the large Paxolin aerofoil shaped item (Slat separator), very useful as a 'French Curve' template. The second is the white painted support for the workbench which is a welded alumunium support 'box', one of a number which supported the 'Visual' model for the original 10 Sim - (large spider and robin on the approach!!) All these supports were sent for scrap when we changed from anologue to digital display - lovely engineering. The final item would be impossible to spot - the 'Jockey wheel' on the support arm in the foreground. This was turned from a largish bar of aircraft grade steel recovered from the Brize workshops scrap bin and kept for the last 30+ years " 'cos it'll come in handy." It originated, I suspect, from one of the hydraulic components. Even on my old Myford, it turned like slicing silk! There was a lot of quality in the 10!
