Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

More Typhoon-bashing ammunition for Rafale fans....

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

More Typhoon-bashing ammunition for Rafale fans....

Old 26th Jan 2020, 17:53
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: back out to Grasse
Posts: 159
Comments and discussions made on this forum may or may not originate from the source indicated by the Username, but rather may be an attempt to gain sensitive information to which the member is not entitled.

ends:

IG
Imagegear is online now  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 17:57
  #22 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
Maj Grüne had just finished a exchange period at 1/2 Cigognes and therefore was extremely ell aware of french tactics ad aircraft...
Incorrigible... You even tried to correct Pete Collins ... Considering some anything but stellar performance at FPT, they should keep a lower profile...
Yes, Grune had flown the Mirage 2000 on exchange, some years before. He's not the first Typhoon pilot to have been supremely unworried by Rafale as an opponent. Most seem to view it as being easier to beat than an F-16.

FPT?

Jackonicko is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 17:58
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1
It is worth bearing in mind the availability of HMSS, Typhoon has one, Rafale, not yet unless I am mistaken. A small advantage in manoeuvrability counts for little if your adversary can look over his shoulder and shoot off bore-sight. I dare say the meeting described in the article above was HUD only BFM? Also what was the currency and capability of the pilot in the Typhoon, had he/she just come back from 6 months on OPS flying air to ground only? Also having spoken to a French Rafale exchange officer currently flying typhoon they are basically comparable with each having small advantages in certain regimes. Clearly a good fighter pilot will know his jets strong points and his enemies weak ones. Bottom line the best pilot will probably win, the jets are pretty similar.
SOX80 is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 18:03
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Bar.
Posts: 28
Fly Airpt,

Nobody is being uncivil or derogatory. The original post gave us the opinion of a Rafale pilot on the Typhoon. You cannot expect a debate to begin and for every poster to agree with you.

I have no doubt that the Rafale is a capable aircraft and very lethal in competent hands, as is the Typhoon. However the way in which the opinion of the Rafale pilot in the original post is portrayed is arrogant and cocky.

Fighter pilots tread a fine line between self-confidence, absolute faith in their own ability and being arrogant and cocky. One place you absolutely cannot be on the wrong side of that line is in the company of other fighter pilots.

Don't expect to publicly smear another Fighter fleet and not have them step up to defend it. The way the pilot speaks in the original article leaves me in no doubt that he enjoys talking the talk but wondering if he can walk the walk.

I am not offended by any of your posts, but if you are looking for a debate of this kind then you need to be prepared for some heat.

Mr Vice
Mr. Vice is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 18:03
  #25 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Of course.
Understandably if ones judgement is how one has been impressed by an air display, no wonder one's advice differs from that of those who fly those airplanes professionally.
I'll privilege direct opinions by military pilots friends in Europe and the US on any current combat airplane.
No need to be uncivil, just plain verified first hand facts will suffice.
You made the accusation that Typhoon "thrusts but doesn't turn."

There aren't many things that airshow demos are useful for (though Rafale's area of excellence in agility terms happens to be in this sort of environment - low and relatively slow) but a Typhoon display does show pretty conclusively that the aircraft both 'thrusts' and turns.

Ive heard a lot more military pilots friends in Europe, the Middle East and the US directly opining that Typhoon is a much better air to air aircraft than Rafale. And that includes guys who have flown both.
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 18:09
  #26 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Jacko

To widen the scope a bit, given your research and access, what is currently the most capable fighter in a visual arena?
Based entirely on second hand opinions (I have not flown any of these aircraft) I would offer the following.

Even without a helmet sight, the consensus seems to be that the F-22 does pretty much rule the roost in air combat, though a well-flown Typhoon can give the Raptor a hard time.

The F-35 also has some eye-watering 'first moves' after the merge, but survive those and it's beatable.

Some of the older 4th Gen fighters can also be very effective, when flown to their best advantage.
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 19:20
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,549
How true!

Originally Posted by SOX80 View Post
[…]Clearly a good fighter pilot will know his jets strong points and his enemies weak ones. Bottom line the best pilot will probably win, the jets are pretty similar.
100% correct - although a little luck can help too.

As the artillery (and men with little willies) often said: "It's the gunner, not the gun, who counts most!"

Best combat proven air defence jet? Still the F-15C, I would think.
BEagle is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 20:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Paris
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by SOX80 View Post
It is worth bearing in mind the availability of HMSS, Typhoon has one, Rafale, not yet unless I am mistaken. A small advantage in manoeuvrability counts for little if your adversary can look over his shoulder and shoot off bore-sight. I dare say the meeting described in the article above was HUD only BFM? Also what was the currency and capability of the pilot in the Typhoon, had he/she just come back from 6 months on OPS flying air to ground only? Also having spoken to a French Rafale exchange officer currently flying typhoon they are basically comparable with each having small advantages in certain regimes. Clearly a good fighter pilot will know his jets strong points and his enemies weak ones. Bottom line the best pilot will probably win, the jets are pretty similar.
Errr...
Both Qatari and indian Rafale fly with Targo II HMSS... About Rafale and Typhoon conforntations, there are enough documented DACT results such as ATLC, Anyway any jockey will consider his mount as the best. About bragging, Grüne is a seasoned expert (remember "Raptor salad"). Funny how this old (and allegedly closed debate) can uselessly come up when some over sensitive folks read interviews...
halloweene is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 22:12
  #29 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
.....And when even more over-sensitive souls see any challenge to the reputation of their favourite jet, or any puncturing of groundless and empty AdlA bragging as being a deeply personal attack on their entire nation.

Strictly FYI I'm not sure that Qatar or India are routinely flying with Targo yet. They have it, and are doing some flying with it.

Re Major Grüne, I guess it's inconceivable that a German might be a more competent warrior than a Frenchman. History alone would suggest that no German has ever done well against the French. 1871, 1914 and 1940 apart..... ah, ok.
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 22:20
  #30 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
100% correct - although a little luck can help too.

As the artillery (and men with little willies) often said: "It's the gunner, not the gun, who counts most!"

Best combat proven air defence jet? Still the F-15C, I would think.
The F-15C is still very competitive, I gather, though whether it's better than Typhoon and F-22 is another matter. I'll bet that the new Saudi and Qatari jets are quite something, however.
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 22:35
  #31 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
I think Hush Kit aims to entertain, while Aircrew Interviews aims to inform.......
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 22:48
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Down South
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
I think Hush Kit aims to entertain, while Aircrew Interviews aims to inform.......
Spot on, and I think it's rather sad.

Hush Kit is, I think, a British website. The editor regularly trolls Facebook with pointless stuff.

The website used to be so much better. I particularly enjoyed the Q&A interview with Blacky, that they published years ago.
BVRAAM is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 23:32
  #33 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
I think you're being a bit unfair. Joe at HK is a good guy, but is reliant on driving traffic and has had to be ever more populist and entertaining, whereas Aircrew Interview is more of a hobby and even a bit of a vanity project that doesn't need to have the same kind of appeal.
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 00:20
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Down South
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
I think you're being a bit unfair. Joe at HK is a good guy, but is reliant on driving traffic and has had to be ever more populist and entertaining, whereas Aircrew Interview is more of a hobby and even a bit of a vanity project that doesn't need to have the same kind of appeal.
We can agree to disagree, although I'd suggest AI is more professional than you might think.
BVRAAM is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 00:33
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 555
Arguments about who has the best fighter are honestly best left to those seemingly endless teenage debates on YouTube. Ditto the arguments about the Abrams versus the T-90, the Type 55 versus the Zumwalt, and the Akula versus the Seawolf. When F-15s shot down 3 MiG-29s in Yugoslavia and then went on to shoot down 5 more in Iraq without loss, people in the West proclaimed the overwhelming superiority of the F-15 over the MiG, while the Russians simply claimed it was due to inferior pilot skills and the situational advantages given by AWACS coverage etc etc and so on and so forth.

In my not so expert opinion it doesn’t really matter if the Rafale is better or if the Typhoon is better, and if there is a difference between them it is so narrow that effective training and individual pilot skills more than compensate. So for me it isn’t a question of Rafale or Typhoon, the secret is to make sure that when the time comes - you have enough of them.

Just my 2 cents....
Fonsini is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 09:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Paris
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Fonsini View Post
Arguments about who has the best fighter are honestly best left to those seemingly endless teenage debates on YouTube. Ditto the arguments about the Abrams versus the T-90, the Type 55 versus the Zumwalt, and the Akula versus the Seawolf. When F-15s shot down 3 MiG-29s in Yugoslavia and then went on to shoot down 5 more in Iraq without loss, people in the West proclaimed the overwhelming superiority of the F-15 over the MiG, while the Russians simply claimed it was due to inferior pilot skills and the situational advantages given by AWACS coverage etc etc and so on and so forth.

In my not so expert opinion it doesn’t really matter if the Rafale is better or if the Typhoon is better, and if there is a difference between them it is so narrow that effective training and individual pilot skills more than compensate. So for me it isn’t a question of Rafale or Typhoon, the secret is to make sure that when the time comes - you have enough of them.

Just my 2 cents....
God's truth. Just for the sake of clarity, Até is not AdlA, but a former Navy pilot (who participated to Northern Lion exercise). Btw, since when anti-nations rantings are welcome here?
halloweene is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 09:59
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 260
Quantity has a quality all of its own! Must be accompanied by training and situation...
TBM-Legend is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 10:42
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
"Since when anti-nations rantings are welcome here?"

Only when the French posturing and boasting about Rafale gets too much and needs puncturing.

Thanks for the clarification on Até - Hush Kit did make it clear that he was MN, not AdlA, don't know how I overlooked it.
Jackonicko is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 11:38
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Paris
Posts: 13
Tbh, it is year since i have not seen any Typhoon bashing on Forums, even french ones were not doing it anymore. For what reasons i do not know, but is it of any use to start another flame war?
Typhoon is Typhoon.
Rafale is Rafale.
So what?
Bringing up old antiphons about supposed capabilities of warriors from any country is at the least discourteous not to say uncivil.
halloweene is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 11:56
  #40 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,946
Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
Tbh, it is year since i have not seen any Typhoon bashing on Forums, even french ones were not doing it anymore. For what reasons i do not know, but is it of any use to start another flame war?
Typhoon is Typhoon.
Rafale is Rafale.
So what?
Bringing up old antiphons about supposed capabilities of warriors from any country is at the least discourteous not to say uncivil.
You should perhaps ask Mr Até as to his motivations in lying about Typhoon's capabilities. I merely sought to correct his nonsensical claims and to give an opportunity for his fellow aviators to give a more balanced view.
Jackonicko is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.