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Lost and stolen Weapons and ammunition

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Lost and stolen Weapons and ammunition

Old 1st Jan 2020, 10:52
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2
The L103A2 is quintessentially a L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle, but with a solid barrel and no full length firing pin (indeed the firing pin aperture on the forward face of the bolt is welded up).

As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
If by "solid barrel" you mean that it was a solid lump of metal with the outward appearance of a barrel sans bore, I despair at the suggestion it is a S.5 firearm. I would argue that as it was never functional from the point of manufacture, then is is a 'Realistic Imitation Firearm' of which there is a clear definition in statute. The real argument would revolve around the practicality of boring the barrel and it being capable of firing projectiles..... The answer is really very simple, just make the barrel out of a white metal casting. Job done.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 10:59
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I have a recollection of seeing a .22 L1A1 SLR but I'm not sure when on where.

I think it may have been at the end of one of our CCF field days when the RAF Section returned to school after running around the woods doing escape and evasion exercises all day. The Army had sent the infantry to school to do training with the Army cadets and when we got back there were very large bangs coming from our 22 rifle range. On investigation we found the Army using 80mm Carl Gustave anti tank rocket launchers in there ……. with the sub caliber training device fitted of course. Used a 7.62 size round with a rounded hollow copper cap, which produced a very big bang similar I was told, to the effect of the real thing. I was very lucky and despite my blue uniform they let me have a go I still have the plywood tank target that I even manged to hit, one of my treasured possessions!

I think the .22 L1A1 was there as well, I remember being told that it had a specially lightened breech block for the automatic reload to work with the .22 ammo, but that they still got a lot of stoppages with it.

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Old 1st Jan 2020, 11:14
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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The L1A1 conversion kit (L12A1) is described at
L12A1 Conversion Kit British .22 Rimfire FAL

Last edited by topgas; 1st Jan 2020 at 20:48.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 11:17
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Is a possible solution, so that the cadets get at least a bit of shooting, for one of the instructors to get a Firearms Certificate ( restricted to authorised ranges only) for someone else’s locally owned .22 ?
For instance I’ve got a CZ452 .22 and I’m more than prepared to loan it to the local ATC or whatever on an occasional basis. It’s got a fairly large scope and a sound moderator but would at least give the kids the opportunity of firing live ammo.
I suppose I could go and supervise myself but suspect I’d have to do the Disclosure and Barring Service thing first.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 11:52
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2
I am unaware of there ever being a .22” conversion of the L1A1 SLR – indeed for that to work you would have to re-barrel the rifle which wouldn’t make any economic sense!
They used a sleeve insert to the original barrel IIRC.

A firm in the USA remanufactured a run of the .22 conversion kits for the SLR a few years ago, was a rumour early in 2019 that they were going to do another run of them, but not seen whether that happened or not. There's at least one of their kits working very well in a UK straight-pull spec SLR that I know of.

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Old 1st Jan 2020, 12:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Yellow Sun
Once again the idiocy of procuring a S5 firearm for cadet use is part of problem. If it was felt necessary to use a service look-a-like then it should have been a L98 in .22 in the first place.
YS
I disagree fundamentally. Your statement shows that you have no understanding of how cadet shooting is run to mandated SASC regulations across the cadet forces.

The reason the L98A2 was procurred was that H&K refused to continue to support the L98A1 (which was apparently a waste of space anyway - I've never seen one so can't comment).

There is no problem with cadets using a Section 5 Firearm if correcty supervised by Current, Competent, and Qualified RCOs/ECOs (IAW Army Code 71855-C Cadet Training - Ranges), and having been taught and tested by Current, Competent, and Qualified SAAIs (IAW Army Code 71807-C The L98A2 Cadet GP Rifle (5.56mm) and Associated Equipment).

In RAFAC there are further limitations applied via ACP18 Vols 1 - 3 (itself written by an SASC Officer), whch lays down things like the Progressive Shooting syllabi foe the various cadet WS.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 12:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AnglianAV8R
The real argument would revolve around the practicality of boring the barrel and it being capable of firing projectiles.
That is I believe, the problem, coupled with the fact that the working parts (bolt carrier assembly) can be cycled.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 13:15
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NRU74
Is a possible solution, so that the cadets get at least a bit of shooting, for one of the instructors to get a Firearms Certificate ( restricted to authorised ranges only) for someone else’s locally owned .22 ?
You'd run into all sorts problems with regulation at Higher Formation level (HQAC and avove), let alone conformity to the RAFAC Progressive Shooting Syllabus, as well as the requirement for producing an Initial Weapons Training Syllabus / Weapons Handling Test (which are a mandated requirement for cadet shooting).

Currently, within RAFAC we have the L144A1 coming on-stream replacing the old No8 rifles. This has been problematic in that the rifle is particularly unserviceable and breaks easily. It's basically an American 'plinking' rifle fitted with target Rifle sights and was, in my view, bought down to a budget as the cheapest contender for the No8 replacement.

There are also the LPWs (Locally Purchased Weapons ie Sqn owned weapons). There is a provision within the Firearms Act 1968, as amended 1997, that allows cadet units to own Section 1 Firearms and Shotguns (subject to the relevent storage regulations) without a FAC, as long as they are recorded on a form known as an ACF20 (copies of which are held by the Sqn, Wg HQ, HQAC, and the local CivPol Firearms unit). The ACF20 acts in lieu of a FAC and allows units to hold weapons and purchase ammunition.

The next blockage is that you are not allowed to fire Service Issued ammunition through LPWs, despite the fact that it's the same Eley Club that you can buy from your local gunsmith!

In terms of .22" shooting, historically it was only Sqns with a (serviceable) range (or access to) that shot. Many sqns didn't shoot .22" outside of Annual Camps (and that's become more problematic with with things like the requirement for a Range Recce, before a RSD (Range Safety Document - ie the paperwork for the planned shoot) is produced.

In my Wg (of 30 Sqns) I have 8 Sqns with .22" ranges (whether indoor or tube), and 3 Sqns with access to a range. Accordingly I wrote a basing plan around this in summer 2017, only to be told by RFCA that I would get a mere 6 armouries alarmed. This in itself is not an insurmountable problem, but it is an Admin burden in ensuring that .22" shooting (when it comes back on line) is spread fairly and eqitably across the Sqns in the Wg. Effectively this will mean W/E shoots as opposed to Parade Night shoots (the latter can be covered off using the air rifles).

Last edited by ExAscoteer2; 1st Jan 2020 at 16:01.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 13:35
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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All very sad. I recall the days when the local army cadets would roll up at our open shoots with their No.8s, and walk away with the prizes. (A few shillings to have the trophies engraved). I shall never forget one young lad, name of MacDonald and 14, who'd never shot at an outdoor range, never mind 100m. Two sighters, adjust, and shot 98 on an Olympic target. All this, on top of the Air Cadet glider fiasco. Someone needs to get a grip. What next? Sea Cadets with no canoes?
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 15:44
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by topgas
Here is the L1A1 conversion kit
There is a very similar .22 calibre conversion for the M4, M16 rifles, they keep the original barrel as it is .223 calibre but change the slide to accept the rimfire cartridge and mags have an insert to accept the .22 rimfire round.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 15:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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The L1A1 conversion kit has been withdrawn.

ATC units wanting to conduct L98A2 training are welcome to contact their local CCF unit who can probably help. Unfortunately internal politics sometimes prevent this.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 16:03
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NRU74
Is a possible solution, so that the cadets get at least a bit of shooting, for one of the instructors to get a Firearms Certificate ( restricted to authorised ranges only) for someone else’s locally owned .22 ?
For instance I’ve got a CZ452 .22 and I’m more than prepared to loan it to the local ATC or whatever on an occasional basis. It’s got a fairly large scope and a sound moderator but would at least give the kids the opportunity of firing live ammo.
I suppose I could go and supervise myself but suspect I’d have to do the Disclosure and Barring Service thing first.
I’m sorry NRU74 but you need to sit down and have a long chat with someone who has a sound working knowledge of the Firearms Act, Whilst your proposal is made with the best of intentions it has so many flaws in it that it would be difficult to know where to start. In addition, the cadet forces have become so burdened with regulation relating to shooting that it’s amazing that anything is ever accomplished.

Another potential problem that is on the horizon is the amendment or withdrawal of S11(4) of the Firearms Act, the part relating to Miniature Rifle Ranges. This has in the past enabled cadet units to acquire non-service smallbore firearms and ammunition without the need for a Firearm Certificate. If it is withdrawn and nothing replaces it, then it could cause significant problems as cadet units would have to be made exempt of the requirements for Home Office Approval in order to qualify for a no cost FAC (at present). The can of worms all this could open is rather large.

YS
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 16:06
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tmmorris
The L1A1 conversion kit has been withdrawn.
ATC units wanting to conduct L98A2 training are welcome to contact their local CCF unit who can probably help. Unfortunately internal politics sometimes prevent this.
You mean L41A1/A2. L1A1 was the FN FAL derived Self loading Rifle that was replaced in service between 1987 - 1991.

What we are doing in my Wg is to share training with local ACF Units via their Coy HQs (an ACF Coy is about the size of an average ATC Sqn!) and (generally) have 'proper' armouries (as opposed to Benwelds).

Having said that, as a SAAI, I have taught ATC, ACF, RM cadets, CCF, as well as Welbeck students.

While problematic, L98A2 training is not insurmountable, but it is now an increased Admin burden.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 16:55
  #34 (permalink)  
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I am surprised how much I have learnt about the SLR I used for so many years since this thread started, from the reasoning for the grooves in the side of the working parts to prevent dirt fouling the mechanism, through the differences and also why the 7.62 round was foisted on us by the US when we had a more suitable round originally envisaged for it.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 19:14
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Nutty.

For all things FAL

https://www.youtube.com/user/Forgott...arch?query=FAL

Oh you may like this one too EM-2


Great channel, but you can spend days in here!!!

Oh just for fun.

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Old 1st Jan 2020, 19:36
  #36 (permalink)  
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This was the film I watched, fascinating.

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Old 1st Jan 2020, 20:40
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"It's my train set and what I say goes"

Yeah watched that couple of weeks ago too, very interesting how the US Army "manipulated" their way to an inferior 5.56 cartridge [same with EM-2 0.208]..
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 21:19
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Originally Posted by tucumseh
All very sad. I recall the days when the local army cadets would roll up at our open shoots with their No.8s, and walk away with the prizes.
Actually you'd be surprised. Shooting is alive and well within RAFAC, it's just more difficult than it was.

For eg, at the last 3 CISSAMs (Cadet Inter Service Skill At Arms Meetings - ie a W/E of Service Rifle Competition, usually at Pirbright) the ATC has won all bar one of the prizes.

Similarly at the last 3 ISCRMs (Inter services Cadet Rifle meetings - ie a 3 day Target Rifle Competition at Bisley), the ATC has by far the most cadets within the Cadet 100 (top 100 scorers).
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Old 2nd Jan 2020, 05:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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At my daughter's school the CCF Air component folded last year - no flying/gliding or shooting and lack of committed staff. The Army section does well and it's the school's vehicle to having a top shooting team.

Oh, and the No 8 .22 target rifle was specifically built as a cadet target rifle. Although they had the Lee Enfield bolt action, the rifle was not a conversion.
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Old 2nd Jan 2020, 06:57
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Originally Posted by Whenurhappy
Oh, and the No 8 .22 target rifle was specifically built as a cadet target rifle. Although they had the Lee Enfield bolt action, the rifle was not a conversion.
Yep, and there were two types of No.8 action as well, one based on the No.4 action, and the other similar to the No.5 action.
The fore end design of the No.8 also ended up being the basis for that used later on the 7.62 L39, L42, Envoy and Enforcers.

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