Lost and stolen Weapons and ammunition
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Lost and stolen Weapons and ammunition
Surprised they seem to think that some may have been taken specifically for criminal reasons, ie stolen to order?. I take it the Army cadet ones will be .22 versions?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...len/ar-BBYr58H
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...len/ar-BBYr58H
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In my 5 years as an air cadet, we only ever used the 5.56 L98A2, which is essentially an L85A2 but semi-automatic only. Having said that, the rifles were always kept behind the razor wire at the local TA barracks. Never came across a .22 variant.
Hawk
Hawk
I believe (out of that kind of thing for a while) that they brought in a kit that converted a standard L85 to a 22, to replace the 98 straight pulls - something about being able to use the same rifle on indoor ranges and not having to keep the old Number 8 22's going. Might be wrong though!
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Ahh, just read up on it, there is a .22 variant allowing its use on .22 ranges where full size ranges are unavailable. More here, thanks for your input, you learn something new everyday.
https://atc.fandom.com/wiki/L98A2_Cadet_GP_Rifle
https://atc.fandom.com/wiki/L98A2_Cadet_GP_Rifle
Campaigners have warned that almost a dozen guns and more than 1000 bullets lost or stolen from Ministry of Defence bases could be used to commit crime.
My ATC days in Australia we used the Lee Enfield .303 recalibered to .22 using a thing called a "Morris Tube". Get your weapon handling and a good consistent grouping on the 25 yard range and then off the the big guns [.303] on the 100yrd range. Big time for a 14 year old...
When I were a lad (1970s), we had .22 conversions of the SLR.
My grandson has just joined ATC and the squadron is no longer using the tunnel range for the .22. We were told that all the rifles have been taken away to secure armouries, due to some being stolen from an ACF unit premises. I fear they will never get them back, as the risk averse folks up top have been looking for the excuse to stop shooting. Stand by for some sterile compootah alternative. The squadron has also lost their No4 DP rifles as they don't meet current EU de-activation standards, so they have lost another enjoyable activity. Pfft.
My grandson has just joined ATC and the squadron is no longer using the tunnel range for the .22. We were told that all the rifles have been taken away to secure armouries, due to some being stolen from an ACF unit premises. I fear they will never get them back, as the risk averse folks up top have been looking for the excuse to stop shooting. Stand by for some sterile compootah alternative. The squadron has also lost their No4 DP rifles as they don't meet current EU de-activation standards, so they have lost another enjoyable activity. Pfft.
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The weapons stolen form the ACF were the Drill Use version that had been decommissioned - badly.
You could still use them for weapon training which to be honest was their main use. After they'd been stolen it was found that they could be recommissioned fairly easily so they were all pulled back into the central Armouries for safe keeping.
Now any training on L98s usually has to be carried out where there's a main Armoury as that's the only place you can get your hands on a rifle.
We used to be able to get the rifles for training and keep them in a Sqn Armoury so we could get the kids through the Weapon Handling Test ready to shoot.
Some regions are looking at a hub and spoke solution with some upgraded Armouries at certain locations but as usual that relies on someone being available to give you access to the local armoury and the Cadet Sqn.
You could still use them for weapon training which to be honest was their main use. After they'd been stolen it was found that they could be recommissioned fairly easily so they were all pulled back into the central Armouries for safe keeping.
Now any training on L98s usually has to be carried out where there's a main Armoury as that's the only place you can get your hands on a rifle.
We used to be able to get the rifles for training and keep them in a Sqn Armoury so we could get the kids through the Weapon Handling Test ready to shoot.
Some regions are looking at a hub and spoke solution with some upgraded Armouries at certain locations but as usual that relies on someone being available to give you access to the local armoury and the Cadet Sqn.
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When I went through Swinditz for drill and passing out we had old Lee Enfields that had been cobbled together to resemble the SLR.
There seems to be a certain amount of not quite correct information here.
Firstly, the reasoning behind 'hub armouries' for cadet Section 1 Firearms is down to the fact that armouries are now required to be alarmed IAW JSP440, and the fact that there isn’t enough money (certainly within the RAFAC budget) to alarm more than about 6 armouries per Wing.
The fact that weapons were recalled to Parent Unit Armouries is down to 2 factors, both directly caused by ACF cock-ups: Last year the ACF lost 3x L103A2 Cadet Drill Purpose Rifles in Edinburgh, stolen by an ex-cadet for sale on the Black Market (obviously the ACF Unit involved were not correctly storing these in an arms chest such as a Benweld. The L103A2 is quintessentially a L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle, but with a solid barrel and no full length firing pin (indeed the firing pin aperture on the forward face of the bolt is welded up) – the L98A2 is basically the cadet version of the L85A2 Individual Weapon but lacking the ‘change lever’ such that it is single-shot, self-loading (i.e. no automatic option for obvious reasons!).
As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
The result of this is that L98A2 training is now problematic in that it has to be done at a Parent Unit – realistically this means that W/E courses are now virtually impossible, with courses having to be run during the school holidays.
Subsequent to the return of the L103s, in March 2019 the ACF lost a couple of .22” rifles in Liverpool (presumably L144A1 Cadet Small Bore Target Rifles – the replacement for the No8 Rifle that went out of service at end Sep last year). So, yet again they weren’t storing them correctly. At the time AOC 22Gp (as DDH), based upon a RAFP Sy Risk Assessment, had given permission to store Section 1 Firearms (both L144A1s as well as non-Service Issued Sqn owned weapons) in unalarmed armouries subject to those armouries becoming alarmed by end Sep 2019. This permission was immediately cancelled and we all ran around again collecting in .22” rifles and delivering to parent Units.
Alarmed armouries are now coming on line, but it will take some time before cadet Small Bore shooting is back up and running. I have no idea why No. 4 Drill Purpose weapons might have been returned to Parent Units other than over zealous WExOs, because these weapons do conform to extant deactivation regulations.
Turning to the .22” conversion of the L98, the kit was known as the L41A1 and was nothing whatsoever to do with the L98A1 ‘straight pull’ Cadet General Purpose Rifle, since it was introduced in 1988 to convert the L85A1 IW for use on 25m Indoor Ranges so as to assist in LFMT (in much the same way that the No8 .22” conversion of the No4 .303” was introduced in the 1950s) This was a relatively simple conversion kit, given that the SA80 family of weapons are chambered in 5.56mm NATO which is (effectively) a .223” bore, and .22”LR is also .223”-.2255”. However, following the introduction into service of the DCCT ranges (Dismounted Close Combat Trainer), in 2003 it was decided that .22” shooting for the Regular and Reserve Forces was of questionable value, so it was removed from the Army’s Operational Shooting Policy. Subsequent to this, and with the introduction of the L98A2 to the cadet forces in 2009/10, it was decided that a .22” conversion would be useful so the L41A1 kits were brought up to L41A2 std. However only the ACF purchased them (RAFAC certainly didn’t). There have been safety concerns about the incorrect fitting of firing pin springs so all L41A2 kits were recalled as of May 2019. Apparently, there are plans afoot to produce a variant of the L98 chambered in .22”LR.
I am unaware of there ever being a .22” conversion of the L1A1 SLR – indeed for that to work you would have to re-barrel the rifle which wouldn’t make any economic sense!
Firstly, the reasoning behind 'hub armouries' for cadet Section 1 Firearms is down to the fact that armouries are now required to be alarmed IAW JSP440, and the fact that there isn’t enough money (certainly within the RAFAC budget) to alarm more than about 6 armouries per Wing.
The fact that weapons were recalled to Parent Unit Armouries is down to 2 factors, both directly caused by ACF cock-ups: Last year the ACF lost 3x L103A2 Cadet Drill Purpose Rifles in Edinburgh, stolen by an ex-cadet for sale on the Black Market (obviously the ACF Unit involved were not correctly storing these in an arms chest such as a Benweld. The L103A2 is quintessentially a L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle, but with a solid barrel and no full length firing pin (indeed the firing pin aperture on the forward face of the bolt is welded up) – the L98A2 is basically the cadet version of the L85A2 Individual Weapon but lacking the ‘change lever’ such that it is single-shot, self-loading (i.e. no automatic option for obvious reasons!).
As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
The result of this is that L98A2 training is now problematic in that it has to be done at a Parent Unit – realistically this means that W/E courses are now virtually impossible, with courses having to be run during the school holidays.
Subsequent to the return of the L103s, in March 2019 the ACF lost a couple of .22” rifles in Liverpool (presumably L144A1 Cadet Small Bore Target Rifles – the replacement for the No8 Rifle that went out of service at end Sep last year). So, yet again they weren’t storing them correctly. At the time AOC 22Gp (as DDH), based upon a RAFP Sy Risk Assessment, had given permission to store Section 1 Firearms (both L144A1s as well as non-Service Issued Sqn owned weapons) in unalarmed armouries subject to those armouries becoming alarmed by end Sep 2019. This permission was immediately cancelled and we all ran around again collecting in .22” rifles and delivering to parent Units.
Alarmed armouries are now coming on line, but it will take some time before cadet Small Bore shooting is back up and running. I have no idea why No. 4 Drill Purpose weapons might have been returned to Parent Units other than over zealous WExOs, because these weapons do conform to extant deactivation regulations.
Turning to the .22” conversion of the L98, the kit was known as the L41A1 and was nothing whatsoever to do with the L98A1 ‘straight pull’ Cadet General Purpose Rifle, since it was introduced in 1988 to convert the L85A1 IW for use on 25m Indoor Ranges so as to assist in LFMT (in much the same way that the No8 .22” conversion of the No4 .303” was introduced in the 1950s) This was a relatively simple conversion kit, given that the SA80 family of weapons are chambered in 5.56mm NATO which is (effectively) a .223” bore, and .22”LR is also .223”-.2255”. However, following the introduction into service of the DCCT ranges (Dismounted Close Combat Trainer), in 2003 it was decided that .22” shooting for the Regular and Reserve Forces was of questionable value, so it was removed from the Army’s Operational Shooting Policy. Subsequent to this, and with the introduction of the L98A2 to the cadet forces in 2009/10, it was decided that a .22” conversion would be useful so the L41A1 kits were brought up to L41A2 std. However only the ACF purchased them (RAFAC certainly didn’t). There have been safety concerns about the incorrect fitting of firing pin springs so all L41A2 kits were recalled as of May 2019. Apparently, there are plans afoot to produce a variant of the L98 chambered in .22”LR.
I am unaware of there ever being a .22” conversion of the L1A1 SLR – indeed for that to work you would have to re-barrel the rifle which wouldn’t make any economic sense!
Last edited by ExAscoteer2; 31st Dec 2019 at 19:18.
I was in the Air Cadets between 89 to 93. We used bolt action 22s on our own tunnel range. We had decommissioned 303 Lee-Enfields for dry rifle training. I fired an L98 once on Annual Camp (possibly RAF Witton in 92) and remember it had rather more kick than the little 22s!
They told us the Lee-Enfields had to be decommissioned as 22s were one thing, but heavy bore weapons like the .303’s getting stolen would have been quite serious!
They told us the Lee-Enfields had to be decommissioned as 22s were one thing, but heavy bore weapons like the .303’s getting stolen would have been quite serious!
They were replaced by the L81A1 Cadet Full Bore Target Rifle (adopted around 1981 and updated to current A2 status in around 1994), a shortened barreled variant of the Parker-Hale Model 82 sniper rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO.
There seems to be a certain amount of not quite correct information here.
Firstly, the reasoning behind 'hub armouries' for cadet Section 1 Firearms is down to the fact that armouries are now required to be alarmed IAW JSP440, and the fact that there isn’t enough money (certainly within the RAFAC budget) to alarm more than about 6 armouries per Wing.
The fact that weapons were recalled to Parent Unit Armouries is down to 2 factors, both directly caused by ACF cock-ups: Last year the ACF lost 3x L103A2 Cadet Drill Purpose Rifles in Edinburgh, stolen by an ex-cadet for sale on the Black Market (obviously the ACF Unit involved were not correctly storing these in an arms chest such as a Benweld. The L103A2 is quintessentially a L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle, but with a solid barrel and no full length firing pin (indeed the firing pin aperture on the forward face of the bolt is welded up) – the L98A2 is basically the cadet version of the L85A2 Individual Weapon but lacking the ‘change lever’ such that it is single-shot, self-loading (i.e. no automatic option for obvious reasons!).
As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
The result of this is that L98A2 training is now problematic in that it has to be done at a Parent Unit – realistically this means that W/E courses are now virtually impossible, with courses having to be run during the school holidays.
Subsequent to the return of the L103s, in March 2019 the ACF lost a couple of .22” rifles in Liverpool (presumably L144A1 Cadet Small Bore Target Rifles – the replacement for the No8 Rifle that went out of service at end Sep last year). So, yet again they weren’t storing them correctly. At the time AOC 22Gp (as DDH), based upon a RAFP Sy Risk Assessment, had given permission to store Section 1 Firearms (both L144A1s as well as non-Service Issued Sqn owned weapons) in unalarmed armouries subject to those armouries becoming alarmed by end Sep 2019. This permission was immediately cancelled and we all ran around again collecting in .22” rifles and delivering to parent Units.
Alarmed armouries are now coming on line, but it will take some time before cadet Small Bore shooting is back up and running. I have no idea why No. 4 Drill Purpose weapons might have been returned to Parent Units other than over zealous WExOs, because these weapons do conform to extant deactivation regulations.
Turning to the .22” conversion of the L98, the kit was known as the L41A1 and was nothing whatsoever to do with the L98A1 ‘straight pull’ Cadet General Purpose Rifle, since it was introduced in 1988 to convert the L85A1 IW for use on 25m Indoor Ranges so as to assist in LFMT (in much the same way that the No8 .22” conversion of the No4 .303” was introduced in the 1950s) This was a relatively simple conversion kit, given that the SA80 family of weapons are chambered in 5.56mm NATO which is (effectively) a .223” bore, and .22”LR is also .223”-.2255”. However, following the introduction into service of the DCCT ranges (Dismounted Close Combat Trainer), in 2003 it was decided that .22” shooting for the Regular and Reserve Forces was of questionable value, so it was removed from the Army’s Operational Shooting Policy. Subsequent to this, and with the introduction of the L98A2 to the cadet forces in 2009/10, it was decided that a .22” conversion would be useful so the L41A1 kits were brought up to L41A2 std. However only the ACF purchased them (RAFAC certainly didn’t). There have been safety concerns about the incorrect fitting of firing pin springs so all L41A2 kits were recalled as of May 2019. Apparently, there are plans afoot to produce a variant of the L98 chambered in .22”LR.
I am unaware of there ever being a .22” conversion of the L1A1 SLR – indeed for that to work you would have to re-barrel the rifle which wouldn’t make any economic sense!
Firstly, the reasoning behind 'hub armouries' for cadet Section 1 Firearms is down to the fact that armouries are now required to be alarmed IAW JSP440, and the fact that there isn’t enough money (certainly within the RAFAC budget) to alarm more than about 6 armouries per Wing.
The fact that weapons were recalled to Parent Unit Armouries is down to 2 factors, both directly caused by ACF cock-ups: Last year the ACF lost 3x L103A2 Cadet Drill Purpose Rifles in Edinburgh, stolen by an ex-cadet for sale on the Black Market (obviously the ACF Unit involved were not correctly storing these in an arms chest such as a Benweld. The L103A2 is quintessentially a L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle, but with a solid barrel and no full length firing pin (indeed the firing pin aperture on the forward face of the bolt is welded up) – the L98A2 is basically the cadet version of the L85A2 Individual Weapon but lacking the ‘change lever’ such that it is single-shot, self-loading (i.e. no automatic option for obvious reasons!).
As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
The result of this is that L98A2 training is now problematic in that it has to be done at a Parent Unit – realistically this means that W/E courses are now virtually impossible, with courses having to be run during the school holidays.
Subsequent to the return of the L103s, in March 2019 the ACF lost a couple of .22” rifles in Liverpool (presumably L144A1 Cadet Small Bore Target Rifles – the replacement for the No8 Rifle that went out of service at end Sep last year). So, yet again they weren’t storing them correctly. At the time AOC 22Gp (as DDH), based upon a RAFP Sy Risk Assessment, had given permission to store Section 1 Firearms (both L144A1s as well as non-Service Issued Sqn owned weapons) in unalarmed armouries subject to those armouries becoming alarmed by end Sep 2019. This permission was immediately cancelled and we all ran around again collecting in .22” rifles and delivering to parent Units.
Alarmed armouries are now coming on line, but it will take some time before cadet Small Bore shooting is back up and running. I have no idea why No. 4 Drill Purpose weapons might have been returned to Parent Units other than over zealous WExOs, because these weapons do conform to extant deactivation regulations.
Turning to the .22” conversion of the L98, the kit was known as the L41A1 and was nothing whatsoever to do with the L98A1 ‘straight pull’ Cadet General Purpose Rifle, since it was introduced in 1988 to convert the L85A1 IW for use on 25m Indoor Ranges so as to assist in LFMT (in much the same way that the No8 .22” conversion of the No4 .303” was introduced in the 1950s) This was a relatively simple conversion kit, given that the SA80 family of weapons are chambered in 5.56mm NATO which is (effectively) a .223” bore, and .22”LR is also .223”-.2255”. However, following the introduction into service of the DCCT ranges (Dismounted Close Combat Trainer), in 2003 it was decided that .22” shooting for the Regular and Reserve Forces was of questionable value, so it was removed from the Army’s Operational Shooting Policy. Subsequent to this, and with the introduction of the L98A2 to the cadet forces in 2009/10, it was decided that a .22” conversion would be useful so the L41A1 kits were brought up to L41A2 std. However only the ACF purchased them (RAFAC certainly didn’t). There have been safety concerns about the incorrect fitting of firing pin springs so all L41A2 kits were recalled as of May 2019. Apparently, there are plans afoot to produce a variant of the L98 chambered in .22”LR.
I am unaware of there ever being a .22” conversion of the L1A1 SLR – indeed for that to work you would have to re-barrel the rifle which wouldn’t make any economic sense!
Once again the idiocy of procuring a S5 firearm for cadet use is part of problem. If it was felt necessary to use a service look-a-like then it should have been a L98 in .22 in the first place.
YS