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Time for a UK SEAD/DEAD Capability?

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Time for a UK SEAD/DEAD Capability?

Old 22nd Dec 2019, 15:00
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
Have they cured the lack of range considering it's the stumpy lift fan version of the family [or do the initials USMC become a cure all?]
Nope. I haven’t seen a UK one with external tanks either, so maybe we haven’t bought that option yet? Then again, if you fit tanks then you lose LO qualities and then you need some sort of stand-off jammer with a SEAD/DEAD capability - circular argument about the requirement?
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Old 22nd Dec 2019, 15:33
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
Nope. I haven’t seen a UK one with external tanks either, so maybe we haven’t bought that option yet? Then again, if you fit tanks then you lose LO qualities and then you need some sort of stand-off jammer with a SEAD/DEAD capability - circular argument about the requirement?
Stealth aircraft with a jammer. Uhuh, just what are we paying for?
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Old 22nd Dec 2019, 21:11
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
Stealth aircraft with a jammer. Uhuh, just what are we paying for?
LO/Stealth only defends at range - closer in you’ll probably need some form of jammer for last ditch manoeuvre?
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Old 23rd Dec 2019, 17:31
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Or a TRD, as on Tiff
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Old 23rd Dec 2019, 22:38
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
Has Ms Abbott lent you her abacus?

Typhoon
1 Sqn
2 Sqn
3 Sqn
6 Sqn
9 Sqn
11 Sqn
12 Sqn
Plus 29 Sqn (biggest number of jets), plus 41 Sqn (effectively the OEU with a small number of jets)

So that is 7x FL Sqns and at least a further in reserve as the OCU/OEU.

Lightning
617 Sqn
Plus 207 Sqn (the OCU), plus 17 Sqn (the OEU)
Plus 809 Sqn for the Royal Navy

If I recall correctly, there is an intent to buy 138 F35 in total, which will mean more RAF and RN sqns are to come?
It was reported a few years ago that the Lightning Force will have an OCU (207 Sqn), an OEU (17 Sqn), and 4 frontline Squadrons (617 Sqn, 809 NAS and another Squadron from each Service at a later date.) One presumes the third Squadron would likely stand around 2026? I was told 809 NAS will stand in mid 2022.

Of course, I don't believe for a minute that the UK will actually buy 138 F-35's. Being realistic, and given our economic uncertainty at the moment, it will be closer to 100 I suspect.
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Old 24th Dec 2019, 20:51
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BVRAAM,
I think that over the service lifetime we’ll likely end up with 150+ F35 tail numbers. However, I agree that the average in-service fleet will be nearer 100. The remaining tails will be attrition and later Blocks that enable advanced capability more cheaply than upgrading older Blocks. Inevitably, there will be a blend of As and Bs.....

57mm,
Not just a TRD, but the Britecloud EAD as well....
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Old 24th Dec 2019, 21:06
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Evalu8ter, thanks, omission on my part due to brain fart.
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Old 24th Dec 2019, 23:23
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Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
BVRAAM,
I think that over the service lifetime we’ll likely end up with 150+ F35 tail numbers. However, I agree that the average in-service fleet will be nearer 100. The remaining tails will be attrition and later Blocks that enable advanced capability more cheaply than upgrading older Blocks. Inevitably, there will be a blend of As and Bs.....
As I said to you before elsewhere, I'd absolutely love for that to be true - the more fast jets buzzing the place, the better. I just can't see the Treasury committing to the stated maximum, much less more.
Remember, the UK ordered 250 Typhoons in a time when we had several hundred Tornado GR's and F3's, a bunch of Jags and both types of Harrier. We no longer have all of those jets and we only have just under 160 Typhoons - that's bad.
Maybe we can expect an additional Typhoon Squadron from SDSR20?
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Old 26th Dec 2019, 09:37
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Interesting to note that London's social security budget, and I use that term loosely, is greater than that for the MoD....
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Old 26th Dec 2019, 10:03
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
Interesting to note that London's social security budget, and I use that term loosely, is greater than that for the MoD....
does that include state pensions?
Worth pointing out that income tax, corporation tax and NI from london pretty much supports the rest of the UK...
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Old 26th Dec 2019, 12:41
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
Interesting to note that London's social security budget, and I use that term loosely, is greater than that for the MoD....
Nice. Want to put it to a vote on which to cut?

Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
With the pitiful range/endurance of the F35B, I don’t think so. S
Its about the same as the Growler isn't it?
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 05:56
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Typically how many cabs in a UK fighter squadron?
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 08:36
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TBM,
The guff around TyTAN (the IOS for Typhoon) noted that the extra Sqns were being generated through efficiencies enabling the rest of the Sqns to be 'around 12 jets'. Not sure if this is still the case…

“We will be extending the life of our multirole Typhoon for 10 extra years through to 2040, meaning we will be able to create 2 additional squadrons. This will give us a total of 7 frontline squadrons, consisting of around 12 aircraft per squadron.”


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Old 27th Dec 2019, 09:01
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Originally Posted by peter we
Its about the same as the Growler isn't it?
Nope, from the following USN website: https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_d...&tid=1200&ct=1

F18E/F (the F model is very similar to the G as an airframe):
Combat Range: 1,275 nautical miles (2,346 kilometers), clean plus two AIM-9s

From the graphic above the F35B has a combat range of ~450nm!

The Super Hornets have about 1/3rd more fuel than the older bog-standard Hornets that you may be thinking of.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 12:53
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
Typically how many cabs in a UK fighter squadron?
Probably none on a fighter Sqn, 'cabs' usually refers to those ugly earth rejecting rotary wing things doesn't it?
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 15:00
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
Nope, from the following USN website: https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_d...&tid=1200&ct=1

F18E/F (the F model is very similar to the G as an airframe):
Combat Range: 1,275 nautical miles (2,346 kilometers), clean plus two AIM-9s

From the graphic above the F35B has a combat range of ~450nm!

The Super Hornets have about 1/3rd more fuel than the older bog-standard Hornets that you may be thinking of.
just make sure you aren’t comparing range and radius...
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 15:41
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Harley,
I was going to suggest that equating perennially bullet-dodging air defenders with proper combat aircraft was something of a compliment actually.....;-)
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:17
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Originally Posted by flighthappens


just make sure you aren’t comparing range and radius...
Thanks for that mate. Even when range is converted to radius then the Growler is far better than F35B by roughly 200nm. Oddly enough the last short range fighter we had was called Lightning too...
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:19
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Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
Harley,
I was going to suggest that equating perennially bullet-dodging air defenders with proper combat aircraft was something of a compliment actually.....;-)
I thought he was talking cabs to the hotel and casino whilst the Wokka mates slum it with the Pongos in tents???
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:58
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
Thanks for that mate. Even when range is converted to radius then the Growler is far better than F35B by roughly 200nm. Oddly enough the last short range fighter we had was called Lightning too...
I wouldn’t be so sure.

You are comparing the Super Hornet, clean, of which the single seat version has more fuel, and possibly different assumptions regarding stores expenditure, certainly drag index.

This USN website has a 850+NM range for the EA-18G when combat loaded. If you halve that you end up 425NM. ALQ99 and AGM88 are heavy and draggy, particularly when not aligned with the airflow on outward canted pylons.

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_d...0&tid=950&ct=1
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