Admiral Kuznetsov on fire
Could we please stop referring to Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov as 'she'.
Russian/Soviet major surface ships are not called by 'she' but by 'he' or, more often simply 'it'.
I know it is a commonly held view that all ships are 'female' well not in Russia they're not.
It is a little complicated ...
Корабль, (= ship) is used for large naval ships, cruiser, frigate, cutter, sloop and is masculine;
Лодка (= boat), schooner, yacht, barge and submarine are feminine;
судно, (= vessel) may be used for any type of vessel; and is neuter.
Please stop calling him 'she'.
.-.
Russian/Soviet major surface ships are not called by 'she' but by 'he' or, more often simply 'it'.
I know it is a commonly held view that all ships are 'female' well not in Russia they're not.
It is a little complicated ...
Корабль, (= ship) is used for large naval ships, cruiser, frigate, cutter, sloop and is masculine;
Лодка (= boat), schooner, yacht, barge and submarine are feminine;
судно, (= vessel) may be used for any type of vessel; and is neuter.
Please stop calling him 'she'.
.-.
Could we please stop referring to Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov as 'she'.
Russian/Soviet major surface ships are not called by 'she' but by 'he' or, more often simply 'it'.
I know it is a commonly held view that all ships are 'female' well not in Russia they're not.
It is a little complicated ...
Russian/Soviet major surface ships are not called by 'she' but by 'he' or, more often simply 'it'.
I know it is a commonly held view that all ships are 'female' well not in Russia they're not.
It is a little complicated ...
What a pointless and silly post!
It matters not a jot what Russians call their vessels in Russian.
In English a ship is a "she" no matter what her nationality.
And a submarine is a boat and therefore "it".
FYI we are discussing this topic in English and so use English terminology, not Russian. Is that simple enough?
Strewth!
Yet he performed pretty well as leader. He kept Labor together under very difficult circumstances and if he led it to defeat, it was because he refused to embrace Brexit, believing strongly that the country needed a better solution.-
I believe that his successor will reap the rewards of Corbyn's prudence, especially if Johnson's Brexit initiative proves to be the current day analog of Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' delusion.
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meleagertoo old chap, the point about the ship being called by the correct prefix was simply informative.
You may chose to continue to use the wrong prefix if you like, it is both disrespectful and inaccurate.
It matters not a jot what you think of what the Russians chose to call their ships.
The fact remains that Fleet Admiral Nikolay Gerasimovich Kuznetsov was a man.
Their major ships have masculine titles.
The ship is not a 'she' just because we are discussing it in the English language.
You may chose to continue to use the wrong prefix if you like, it is both disrespectful and inaccurate.
It matters not a jot what you think of what the Russians chose to call their ships.
The fact remains that Fleet Admiral Nikolay Gerasimovich Kuznetsov was a man.
Their major ships have masculine titles.
The ship is not a 'she' just because we are discussing it in the English language.
HAS59 - in the English Language ships are SHE - in Russian they are HE
Note the two British carriers - Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales - both "She"
It may be irritating but it's not disrespectful
We don't use the exact names of cities in a similar way - Milano becomes Milan etc
Note the two British carriers - Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales - both "She"
It may be irritating but it's not disrespectful
We don't use the exact names of cities in a similar way - Milano becomes Milan etc
Kuznetsov prefix
Asturias56, hello/Ciao
It doesn’t matter which language you are using; it does not alter the simple fact that the ‘carrier should not be referred to as ‘she’ if one want's to be accurate.
Keep on getting it wrong if you like, it’s up to you.
If you can’t bring yourself to get it right, then simply use the word ‘it’, which is also correct.
In the ‘English language’ ships/aircraft/other vehicles etc are indeed often called ‘she’ but language is a constantly evolving entity.
Your Milan/Milano line does not apply as it is the gender of the prefix which is under discussion, not the language used to describe it.
I have spent my entire working life passing on facts for others to use – or not.
I know that I am an irritating pedantic old bloke at times, it is simply my intention to inform.
What you do with the facts is entirely up to you.
For what it’s worth,
I watched the ‘carrier grow from a keel-block to a fully complete operational ship.
I have followed it’s time in service with interest and look forward to seeing the ship back at sea.
It doesn’t matter which language you are using; it does not alter the simple fact that the ‘carrier should not be referred to as ‘she’ if one want's to be accurate.
Keep on getting it wrong if you like, it’s up to you.
If you can’t bring yourself to get it right, then simply use the word ‘it’, which is also correct.
In the ‘English language’ ships/aircraft/other vehicles etc are indeed often called ‘she’ but language is a constantly evolving entity.
Your Milan/Milano line does not apply as it is the gender of the prefix which is under discussion, not the language used to describe it.
I have spent my entire working life passing on facts for others to use – or not.
I know that I am an irritating pedantic old bloke at times, it is simply my intention to inform.
What you do with the facts is entirely up to you.
For what it’s worth,
I watched the ‘carrier grow from a keel-block to a fully complete operational ship.
I have followed it’s time in service with interest and look forward to seeing the ship back at sea.
Meanwhile Lloyd's stopped the use of 'anachronistic gender terms' for all ships a couple of decades ago. Admittedly Lloyd's did use them for over 250 years, but times change.
Last dance on the head of this pin?
Last dance on the head of this pin?
Thread Starter
The DPRK could make an offer on it and try to leapfrog the Chinese...
Fella, the sex of the person a ship is named after has even less to do with it than language. If it did by your very own logic the HMS Queen Elizabeth must be a 'she' and the otherwise identical P o W would be a 'he'. What would HMS Ashanti be? ..."They"...? Idiotic beyond belief! Petard, hoist. QED
Once again, utterly incorrect on the language front. If discussing a ship in English she can only be referred to (correctly) as 'she'. What term another languages uses is irrelevant unless you are speaking that language when of course you use the linguistically correct terminology. Are you going to demand we use the grammar and phraseology of the country we are referring to as well? In English? Does this topsy-turvy world of yours work in reverse? By your rules how could a French speaker refer correctly to a UK submarine as there are only two genders available? There is no French word corresponding to 'it', neither can a genderless word exist as a concept in French. Congratulations! You've just reinvented the incomprehensible biblical babble of Babel.
Come down off your high horse. You are clearly completely out of your depth (no pun intended) both linguistically and rationally.
In correct English ships are 'she' and boats are 'it'. The fact that Lloyds sees this as an anachronism is irrelevant too. If lloyds feel their expertise extends to modifying usage in English I'd suggest they reciprocate by allowing the OED to dictate policy at top levels of insurance.
Last edited by meleagertoo; 17th Dec 2019 at 13:03.
Clearly missed the Politeness Course though.
It really is simple
Facts are what they are old bean, but try to read my words and not misunderstand what has been written. It’s not about the language used to describe he/she/it - он/она/Это, it is simply about the gender of the prefix of Russian ships.
The fact I stated, that this Russian ‘carrier is named after a Russian Admiral was to illustrate that this Russian ship has a masculine prefix, in Russian.
You are of course right to state that HMS Queen Elizabeth (and Ashanti, Zulu etc) are of course ‘She’ as they are British. Due to the former dominance of the Royal Navy, most other navies have probably followed suit.
This does not alter the fact that a Russian Major warship is still not referred to as she, by the Russians, and I would suggest by the rest of us who are concerned with accuracy, and a measure of respect. (You’ve heard of respect?)
Feel free to call all the ships of the world ‘she’ if it makes you happy … it still doesn’t make it correct, unless you assume that the English language has dominance over all the others.
Do you imagine the Russians would call their ships by different genders at random, or do you think that there may be an element of tradition and pride? Ought not that tradition count for something?
I am not making any ‘demands’ that you use any phrase or terminology which pleases you, I’m just pointing out the facts. I know it’s irritating but there it is nevertheless.
Thank you for your thoughts on the linguistic complications of gender in other languages all of which was pointless, but diverting all the same.
My High Horse is not out of it’s depth by the way, but it knows from which orifice it is speaking.
Amid the petty squabbling we ought to remember the two dead and fourteen others injured in the fire and with our condolences send our best wishes for a full and speedy recovery of the survivors.
The ship is old and Russian shipyard safety standards are often questionable. I hope that once the investigation into the fire has determined the cause, that work continues at a safer level.
It is good to know that, if the vessel deploys again that we will have our own operational MPA to cover its journey.
Last edited by HAS59; 17th Dec 2019 at 19:09. Reason: perspective
Seldom has anyone on this forum allowed themselves to dig such an indefensible hole out of such blind yet dazzlingly incorrect pedantry.
Fella, the sex of the person a ship is named after has even less to do with it than language. If it did by your very own logic the HMS Queen Elizabeth must be a 'she' and the otherwise identical P o W would be a 'he'. What would HMS Ashanti be? ..."They"...? Idiotic beyond belief! Petard, hoist. QED
Fella, the sex of the person a ship is named after has even less to do with it than language. If it did by your very own logic the HMS Queen Elizabeth must be a 'she' and the otherwise identical P o W would be a 'he'. What would HMS Ashanti be? ..."They"...? Idiotic beyond belief! Petard, hoist. QED
Although I'm really quite surprised that HAS59 is making such heavy weather of such a time- honoured tradition, he has made an old salt smile which, with the utmost respect, is a good thing. Let our Russian friends refer to their, or anyone else's, ships any in way they like in Russian, or any other language for that matter, and just let sensible British users of the English language carry on doing what they have been doing since time immemorial.
Jack
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During my short time on the old (Old) Ark Royal I had many opportunities to visit Boiler Flats (8), Turbine Flats (4) gearbox rooms (4), and ancillary equipment areas. All brass piping polished to a mirror, Stokers and engineers in crisp white boiler suits, Very, very impressive and relatively quiet even when running at full chat. Another interesting, and occasionally dangerous place was the catapult equipment area. Huge pieces of metal and long lengths of cable under tension moving at high speed. My favourite "spotting" place was the Flag Deck to which I had almost direct access from my workspace. Oh the joys of youth, new ports and experiences..
IG
IG
Before we get too cocky, wasn't Victorious so damaged by a dockyard fire that her refit was abandoned, and I seem to recall another of the Grey Funnel Line's carriers was similarly disabled (Centaur or Bulwark?) in almost identical circumstances. Happy to be corrected.