Saudi Student Shooting at NAS Pensacola
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"Lone wolf, acted alone, no known ties to terrorism, isolated random act of violence etc. are the customary disclaimers in these incidents"
You're right Bubba - that's what they roll out whenever anyone goes crazy in the USA and shoots a bunch of innocents - they're nutters with a gun that's all
You're right Bubba - that's what they roll out whenever anyone goes crazy in the USA and shoots a bunch of innocents - they're nutters with a gun that's all
Then, if a connection to radical Islam is indicated, the obligatory 'Muslims fear backlash' article is posted. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just some observations on the formulaic American news coverage.
I'm curious about the timing of two attacks at Navy bases a couple of days apart. Was the Pearl Harbor shooting done by a mentally disturbed sailor who had been to Captain's Mast and then given a gun to guard his boat? Was the Navy Pensacola attack a sudden copycat jihadi response? Or, were these shootings planned together as hard to defend against insider attacks against the Great Satan as revenge for killing some ISIS leader?
If you take out the dog-whistle "Saudi" it's another US "man-with-gun kills innocents " which happens with alarming frequency I'm afraid which will continue as long as the current interpretation of the Second Amendment is supported
Not a dog whistle, Asturias; that was a really lame attempt to be cute if you bother to remember what happened at Fort Hood.
1. I suggest that you clue up about Saudi pilots who have been part of the "train foreigners" package the USN has had in place in Pensacola for decades. (We also have had boatloads non Arab sorts, like NATO allies and Brazilians, reaching back to well before I ever showed up there as an ensign while Carter was president ...)
While a few get with the program and did well, far too many were in that billet due to a family connection and prestige.
Nearly two decades ago I was confronted with an asylum request (had to staff it) from one of these "not so right stuff" candidates. This non performer, having been disenrolled due to lack of performance, was asking for political asylum since he was afraid he'd be killed when he got home due to the shame he caused his family.
We eventuall punted that one off to OLA at the Pentagon, and they handled it).
2. As to this case, this little Saudi Snowflake has no business in an aviation squadron, if this article is to be believed.
Got his little panties in a wad over a call sign / flying name. That one's pretty mild compared to stuff I saw all over the fleet.
Do you accept that as justification for shooting up a classroom, or not?
1. I suggest that you clue up about Saudi pilots who have been part of the "train foreigners" package the USN has had in place in Pensacola for decades. (We also have had boatloads non Arab sorts, like NATO allies and Brazilians, reaching back to well before I ever showed up there as an ensign while Carter was president ...)
While a few get with the program and did well, far too many were in that billet due to a family connection and prestige.
Nearly two decades ago I was confronted with an asylum request (had to staff it) from one of these "not so right stuff" candidates. This non performer, having been disenrolled due to lack of performance, was asking for political asylum since he was afraid he'd be killed when he got home due to the shame he caused his family.
We eventuall punted that one off to OLA at the Pentagon, and they handled it).
2. As to this case, this little Saudi Snowflake has no business in an aviation squadron, if this article is to be believed.
As the F.B.I. continues to conduct interviews with everyone at the Pensacola Naval Air Station who may have had contact with the gunman, identified as Second Lt. Mohammed Alshamrani, a new report emerged that the Saudi trainee filed a formal complaint earlier this year against one of his instructors, who left him “infuriated” in class by tagging him with a derogatory nickname.
The complaint, quoted in a communication circulated among people connected to the flight training, said that the instructor referred to Lieutenant Alshamrani as “Porn Stash” in front of about 10 other aviation students, embarrassing and angering him.
The complaint, quoted in a communication circulated among people connected to the flight training, said that the instructor referred to Lieutenant Alshamrani as “Porn Stash” in front of about 10 other aviation students, embarrassing and angering him.
Do you accept that as justification for shooting up a classroom, or not?
Not a dog whistle, Asturias; that was a really lame attempt to be cute if you bother to remember what happened at Fort Hood.
1. I suggest that you clue up about Saudi pilots who have been part of the "train foreigners" package the USN has had in place in Pensacola for decades. (We also have had boatloads non Arab sorts, like NATO allies and Brazilians, reaching back to well before I ever showed up there as an ensign while Carter was president ...)
While a few get with the program and did well, far too many were in that billet due to a family connection and prestige.
Nearly two decades ago I was confronted with an asylum request (had to staff it) from one of these "not so right stuff" candidates. This non performer, having been disenrolled due to lack of performance, was asking for political asylum since he was afraid he'd be killed when he got home due to the shame he caused his family.
We eventuall punted that one off to OLA at the Pentagon, and they handled it).
2. As to this case, this little Saudi Snowflake has no business in an aviation squadron, if this article is to be believed.
Got his little panties in a wad over a call sign / flying name. That one's pretty mild compared to stuff I saw all over the fleet.
Do you accept that as justification for shooting up a classroom, or not?
1. I suggest that you clue up about Saudi pilots who have been part of the "train foreigners" package the USN has had in place in Pensacola for decades. (We also have had boatloads non Arab sorts, like NATO allies and Brazilians, reaching back to well before I ever showed up there as an ensign while Carter was president ...)
While a few get with the program and did well, far too many were in that billet due to a family connection and prestige.
Nearly two decades ago I was confronted with an asylum request (had to staff it) from one of these "not so right stuff" candidates. This non performer, having been disenrolled due to lack of performance, was asking for political asylum since he was afraid he'd be killed when he got home due to the shame he caused his family.
We eventuall punted that one off to OLA at the Pentagon, and they handled it).
2. As to this case, this little Saudi Snowflake has no business in an aviation squadron, if this article is to be believed.
Got his little panties in a wad over a call sign / flying name. That one's pretty mild compared to stuff I saw all over the fleet.
Do you accept that as justification for shooting up a classroom, or not?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...term=PornTache
I think, peter, that if you bother to read the whole article, a complaint was filed and a personnel action taken.
Shall we put you in the "apologist for murder" column?
Also, Peter, I'll thank you not to insult my intelligence.
I got the joke as soon as I saw the nickname, and the picture.
I am guessing that you didn't.
There is a picture of me from my flight school days (back before there was an internet) that has me sporting a similar mustache (albeit a bit fuller) on my face. My wife still laughs about it, when it comes up.
Years later (as in, within the past decade) a friend saw it and asked me if I was going for the porn star look back in the day.
I shot nobody, and I didn't get all outraged and indignant.
Then again, I'm neither a snowflake nor a Saudi.
“Appropriate personnel action was taken regarding the incident in question, corrective action was taken, the matter was closed back in April, and we have no further comment,” Mr. Busey said.
Also, Peter, I'll thank you not to insult my intelligence.
I got the joke as soon as I saw the nickname, and the picture.
I am guessing that you didn't.
There is a picture of me from my flight school days (back before there was an internet) that has me sporting a similar mustache (albeit a bit fuller) on my face. My wife still laughs about it, when it comes up.
Years later (as in, within the past decade) a friend saw it and asked me if I was going for the porn star look back in the day.
I shot nobody, and I didn't get all outraged and indignant.
Then again, I'm neither a snowflake nor a Saudi.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 11th Dec 2019 at 14:02.
Mainly because I think its wrong, but also because the world is full of dead people who insulted a delicate ego.
There a lot of men who fall into that category..
"snowflake". I guess half of prison inmates are snowflakes in that case.
It happened to my people. So I care.
The excuses you offer for that piece of dog crap are beneath contempt.
Regarding snowflakes; if one has not got a thick skin, one is ill suited for military aviation.
"train foreigners" package the USN has had in place in Pensacola for decades. (We also have had boatloads non Arab sorts, like NATO allies and Brazilians
1. Significant State Department influence.
2. Vetting usually done by home nation, not by US. (Though a few new rules did crop up from DHS and State Department)
3. After 9-11, the Navy had a haiatus on admitting foreign students from selected states in the Gulf region, but not due to the Navy having a new policy, but rather because DHS (a recently created Department) had implemented rules that basically said "nobody gets flight training unless (fill in blank with list of requirements"
4. My memory, a bit faulty, was that we'd just stopped doing it. For some reason, I had thought that when Rummy kept pulling US folks out of Saudi and moving some home and some to Qatar and Kuwait, there was also a reduction in Saudi student input on this side but apparently that memory wasn't correct.
The accessions only stopped for a while (and I don't think it was stopped for more than a couple of years).
5. I am about 75% sure that the following is correct: this most recent student (who did the shooting) was suposed to get the (fairly cheap) initial USN Nav/WSO training at Pensacola (Training Wing 6) and then proceed to a USAF training base to get WSO training for F-15's - which fits with the recent F-15 Strike Eagle variant the Saudis procured. (This tidbit from a different source)
FWIW, from sometime in the 90's unitl the late 00's or early 10's, the USN and USAF had a multi service training deal going on for WSO's / NAVs / NFOs at TRAWING 6. This included a variety of NATO and other foreign students. (It was driven by both BRAC and Goldwater Nichols direction...) It appears that the use of Pensacola as entry point remains a viable path for some of the foreign aviation. students.
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An update from Reuters, are only the Saudis doing the uh, 'safety stand-down'? 
:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Nearly 175 Saudi Arabian military aviation students have been grounded as part of a “safety stand-down” after a Saudi Air Force lieutenant shot and killed three people last week at a U.S. Navy base in Florida, U.S. officials told Reuters on Tuesday.
“A safety stand-down and operational pause commenced Monday for Saudi Arabian aviation students,” Lieutenant Andriana Genualdi, a Navy spokeswoman, said.
She said the grounding included three different military facilities, including Naval Air Station Pensacola, Naval Air Station Whiting Field and Naval Air Station Mayport in Florida.
:December 10, 2019 / 2:45 PM
Exclusive: Nearly 175 Saudi military aviation students grounded in U.S. after base shooting
“A safety stand-down and operational pause commenced Monday for Saudi Arabian aviation students,” Lieutenant Andriana Genualdi, a Navy spokeswoman, said.
She said the grounding included three different military facilities, including Naval Air Station Pensacola, Naval Air Station Whiting Field and Naval Air Station Mayport in Florida.
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Should our warfighters be allowed to be carry weapons?
NAS Pensacola shooting leads Navy instructor pilots to tell top brass: 'Arm us'
Published 41 mins ago Last Update 10 mins ago
EXCLUSIVE (Fox News) -- A group of U.S. Navy instructor pilots asked top military brass for permission to arm themselves in the wake of the shooting at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Fla., where a Saudi military pilot gunned down three American sailors and wounded eight others.
One of the shooting victims was the captain of the U.S. Naval Academy rifle team, an “excellent marksman,” according to his brother.“It’s so stupid that on a military base, the shooter was allowed to roam free for so long,” according to one instructor pilot. “In a gun fight, that’s an eternity.” The pilot, like others interviewed by Fox News, did not want his name used because he was not authorized to speak with the media.
One of the pilots said Navy brass denied their request to arm themselves on base.
Two pilots said the Saudi shooter had 10 minutes to carry out his deadly assault on defenseless Navy sailors at the “API” -- aviation pre-flight indoctrination -- building. The Naval Aviation Safety school is also located in the building.
Published 41 mins ago Last Update 10 mins ago
EXCLUSIVE (Fox News) -- A group of U.S. Navy instructor pilots asked top military brass for permission to arm themselves in the wake of the shooting at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Fla., where a Saudi military pilot gunned down three American sailors and wounded eight others.
One of the shooting victims was the captain of the U.S. Naval Academy rifle team, an “excellent marksman,” according to his brother.“It’s so stupid that on a military base, the shooter was allowed to roam free for so long,” according to one instructor pilot. “In a gun fight, that’s an eternity.” The pilot, like others interviewed by Fox News, did not want his name used because he was not authorized to speak with the media.
One of the pilots said Navy brass denied their request to arm themselves on base.
Two pilots said the Saudi shooter had 10 minutes to carry out his deadly assault on defenseless Navy sailors at the “API” -- aviation pre-flight indoctrination -- building. The Naval Aviation Safety school is also located in the building.
The instructor pilots said the incentive to arm was obvious. “We need to protect not just the pilots, but our aircraft that are worth millions.”
One pilot called base security at NAS Pensacola and other Navy bases “mall cops,” because protection on the base has been outsourced to private security and many were “fat and out of shape.”
“I have zero confidence the guy I show my ID card to at the gate could save me,” one pilot added. Fox News spoke to three Navy instructor pilots Tuesday.
It’s an opinion shared by many across the military, including the U.S. Army; more than a dozen soldiers and an unborn child were gunned down at Fort Hood in 2009.
“We trust 18-year-old privates in combat with grenades, anti-tank missiles, rifles and machine guns, but we let service members get slaughtered because we don’t trust anyone to be armed back here in the United States,” a senior U.S. Army officer told Fox News.
“Why are we cowering in our offices, it’s insane,” the officer added.The first responders to the shooting at the military base were cops off base, not members of the military, which the instructor pilots found insulting.
The gunman, Saudi Arabian Air Force 2nd Lt. Mohammed Saeed Alshamrani, was shot and killed by a deputy from the Escambia County Sheriff's Office.
The U.S. Marine Corps for years has provided armed Marines known as “Guardian Angels” to watch over training at The Basic School for newly minted Marine officers in Quantico, Va., outside the nation’s capital. The Guardian Angels have watched over the young officers during live-fire training and were ready to respond. Some service members asked for a similar program for the Navy, even for flight school.
“Our message is simple: arm us,” one pilot said. “We don’t want to count on cops or gate guards to save us in a crisis.”
There was no immediate comment from the U.S. Navy about reversing the policy when Fox News asked.
The Saudi pilot was training to be a naval flight officer, a “backseater” in military jargon, not a pilot, one of the instructor pilots told Fox News.
The family of one of the three victims, Ensign Joshua Kaleb Watson, 23, who had graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy this past May, urged lawmakers and military officers to allow service members to protect themselves on base during an appearance Tuesday morning on “Fox and Friends.”Watson captained the 2018-2019 U.S. Naval Academy rifle team, according to the Naval Academy Athletic Department.
“He was well qualified to have a firearm and defend himself. If we are going to ask these young men and women to stand watch for our country, they need the opportunity to defend themselves. This isn’t the first time this happened and if we don’t change something, then it won’t be the last,” said Adam Watson, Joshua’s brother. “My brother was an excellent marksman. If my brother had not had that right stripped from him, this would be a different conversation.”
Joshua’s mother, Sheila, agreed.
“He was my baby. It hurts me. It doesn’t really anger me as much as it hurts me. My baby was standing watch and he lost his life because he wasn’t armed,” she said.
Joshua’s father, Benjamin, described his son’s heroism.
“We know that he was shot at least five times and then somehow found the strength, bleeding profusely to make it out the door to tell first responders. They came up to him and with basically his last breath, summoned his courage to give an accurate description of the shooter and his location so they could do their duty.”
One pilot called base security at NAS Pensacola and other Navy bases “mall cops,” because protection on the base has been outsourced to private security and many were “fat and out of shape.”
“I have zero confidence the guy I show my ID card to at the gate could save me,” one pilot added. Fox News spoke to three Navy instructor pilots Tuesday.
It’s an opinion shared by many across the military, including the U.S. Army; more than a dozen soldiers and an unborn child were gunned down at Fort Hood in 2009.
“We trust 18-year-old privates in combat with grenades, anti-tank missiles, rifles and machine guns, but we let service members get slaughtered because we don’t trust anyone to be armed back here in the United States,” a senior U.S. Army officer told Fox News.
“Why are we cowering in our offices, it’s insane,” the officer added.The first responders to the shooting at the military base were cops off base, not members of the military, which the instructor pilots found insulting.
The gunman, Saudi Arabian Air Force 2nd Lt. Mohammed Saeed Alshamrani, was shot and killed by a deputy from the Escambia County Sheriff's Office.
The U.S. Marine Corps for years has provided armed Marines known as “Guardian Angels” to watch over training at The Basic School for newly minted Marine officers in Quantico, Va., outside the nation’s capital. The Guardian Angels have watched over the young officers during live-fire training and were ready to respond. Some service members asked for a similar program for the Navy, even for flight school.
“Our message is simple: arm us,” one pilot said. “We don’t want to count on cops or gate guards to save us in a crisis.”
There was no immediate comment from the U.S. Navy about reversing the policy when Fox News asked.
The Saudi pilot was training to be a naval flight officer, a “backseater” in military jargon, not a pilot, one of the instructor pilots told Fox News.
The family of one of the three victims, Ensign Joshua Kaleb Watson, 23, who had graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy this past May, urged lawmakers and military officers to allow service members to protect themselves on base during an appearance Tuesday morning on “Fox and Friends.”Watson captained the 2018-2019 U.S. Naval Academy rifle team, according to the Naval Academy Athletic Department.
“He was well qualified to have a firearm and defend himself. If we are going to ask these young men and women to stand watch for our country, they need the opportunity to defend themselves. This isn’t the first time this happened and if we don’t change something, then it won’t be the last,” said Adam Watson, Joshua’s brother. “My brother was an excellent marksman. If my brother had not had that right stripped from him, this would be a different conversation.”
Joshua’s mother, Sheila, agreed.
“He was my baby. It hurts me. It doesn’t really anger me as much as it hurts me. My baby was standing watch and he lost his life because he wasn’t armed,” she said.
Joshua’s father, Benjamin, described his son’s heroism.
“We know that he was shot at least five times and then somehow found the strength, bleeding profusely to make it out the door to tell first responders. They came up to him and with basically his last breath, summoned his courage to give an accurate description of the shooter and his location so they could do their duty.”
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
In the few armed conflicts I've been invited to, I've always thought to myself;
"You know what would make this place a lot safer? More people running around with weapons".
"You know what would make this place a lot safer? More people running around with weapons".
Salute!
Don't know about many of you folks, but the safest place I ever served without worrying about a Jihadist was in South Vietnam during the sixties. Oh yeah, maybe some Charlie with a death wish, but they were not Muslims.
Being an Air Commando, we "carried", unlike the F-100 troops at our base or a few other folks when we deployed to Pleiku. Almost everybody "carried" almost everywhere. So some nut that started shooting would have had maybe two shots before his head was blown off.
The Fort Hood episode should have been a warning. I would take my chances with everybody being armed and one whack job around, than the whack job being the only one with a pistol. I am not all that sure that the perp bought the pistol by himself, as the background check is required for the pistol. OTOH, he could have bought an AR-15 or shotgun at a local store and walked out in 10 minutes. Meanwhile....
Our local offices in the Panhandle are all flying flags at half mast. The hero Ensign that warned everyone, then died was a local troop who dreamed of flying neat jets like I did almost 60 years ago, when I took my physical at Pensacola Naval Air Station to get an Annapolis admission. We are all mourning.
++++++++++++++++++++=
I flew with and trained many folks from all over in the A-37 and then in the Viper. I flew with the only IAF group and Paki group to check out in the Viper at Hill. Had one Egytian colonel in my back seat for orientation ( family model Viper), but was getting out and never flew with any of them. As others have said, except for those Paki folks, most of the non-NATO pilots had "connections". In fact, our Paki pilots told many war stories about checking out "priveleged" pilots from the fiefdoms in the Mideast. Their opinion of them was low. They constantly reminded us that they were Muslims, but not Arabs. Take that any way you wish. Politics never came up.
Gums sends...
Don't know about many of you folks, but the safest place I ever served without worrying about a Jihadist was in South Vietnam during the sixties. Oh yeah, maybe some Charlie with a death wish, but they were not Muslims.
Being an Air Commando, we "carried", unlike the F-100 troops at our base or a few other folks when we deployed to Pleiku. Almost everybody "carried" almost everywhere. So some nut that started shooting would have had maybe two shots before his head was blown off.
The Fort Hood episode should have been a warning. I would take my chances with everybody being armed and one whack job around, than the whack job being the only one with a pistol. I am not all that sure that the perp bought the pistol by himself, as the background check is required for the pistol. OTOH, he could have bought an AR-15 or shotgun at a local store and walked out in 10 minutes. Meanwhile....
Our local offices in the Panhandle are all flying flags at half mast. The hero Ensign that warned everyone, then died was a local troop who dreamed of flying neat jets like I did almost 60 years ago, when I took my physical at Pensacola Naval Air Station to get an Annapolis admission. We are all mourning.
++++++++++++++++++++=
I flew with and trained many folks from all over in the A-37 and then in the Viper. I flew with the only IAF group and Paki group to check out in the Viper at Hill. Had one Egytian colonel in my back seat for orientation ( family model Viper), but was getting out and never flew with any of them. As others have said, except for those Paki folks, most of the non-NATO pilots had "connections". In fact, our Paki pilots told many war stories about checking out "priveleged" pilots from the fiefdoms in the Mideast. Their opinion of them was low. They constantly reminded us that they were Muslims, but not Arabs. Take that any way you wish. Politics never came up.
Gums sends...
Last edited by gums; 11th Dec 2019 at 02:11. Reason: added verbiage
Hi gums, good to hear from you again!
Even though it's abundantly clear that you meant no offense, unfortunately the term 'Paki' is now considered to be offensive by simpering political correcto snowflakes over here. 'Pak AF' would probably be OK though.
Even though it's abundantly clear that you meant no offense, unfortunately the term 'Paki' is now considered to be offensive by simpering political correcto snowflakes over here. 'Pak AF' would probably be OK though.
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From the University of Alaska at Fairbanks Alaska Native Language Center:
Although the name "Eskimo" is commonly used in Alaska to refer to all Inuit and Yupik people of the world, this name is considered derogatory in many other places because it was given by non-Inuit people and was said to mean "eater of raw meat."
https://www.uaf.edu/anlc/resources/inuit_or_eskimo.php
Paki means 'Pure', as a Pakistani man explained to me, its not a insult or offensive.
Capt. Timothy Kinsella, the Pensacola base commander, said there were about 200 foreign nationals currently training at the base.
Another bit from media - served with least a grain, or even a pinch, of salt.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...vy-a_191211.nl
Although terrorism has not been officially established as a motive for the shootings, the SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors jihadist postings and activity, cited a Twitter account with a name matching Alshamrani's that included anti-American diatribes.
"I'm not against you for just being American," the posts said, according to SITE. "I don't hate you because your freedoms, I hate you because every day you supporting, funding and committing crimes not only against Muslims but also humanity."
"I'm not against you for just being American," the posts said, according to SITE. "I don't hate you because your freedoms, I hate you because every day you supporting, funding and committing crimes not only against Muslims but also humanity."
Parroting the complaints of garden-variety useful idiots; shows no original thought, and borders one being a meme.
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When I was at school 40+ years ago I knew that none of my friends liked being called Paki so it predates both 'political correctness' and 'snowflake'. I don't think it's a case of being 'woke' more being sensitive to others. Or maybe not using such a broad sweep as banter. If I'm going to take the piss it will be because of your personal faults not an accident of your birthplace.
Like calling someone who can't understand this 'boomer'.
Ok boomer?
Like calling someone who can't understand this 'boomer'.
Ok boomer?
