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UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents

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UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents

Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:46
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Countdown begins View Post


Thats not expensive when you look at nearly 1000 Wg Cdr and above on a directionless self licking lollipop.
Where is the ‘Focus on personnel’? Great in a pamphlet, but not over on Ops.
People first... anyone got any examples?
Ive recently left, so I’m not going to be quietened down by a boss that has no bullocks. I think an army of Deloitte etc would be worth paying, rather than have a load of pension calculators grinding the guys down with no tangibles to demonstrate to Ben Wallace.
So what 1,000 Wg Cdr+ are these then? Also, have you any idea the amount of tripe that has been espoused by your suggested outsourced consultants that effectively regurgitate what they have been told after consulting with Service personnel? The average spend was over £5,000 per consultant per day back in 2011 - what have we got to show for that investment?(rhetorical question)

https://spendmatters.com/uk/mod-payi...ants-evidence/

You want some ‘lateral thinking’? Empower your personnel with at least 15 years of experience to inform your leadership without diluting their message. Also, trust your people and delegate until you start to feel uncomfortable; then back it off a bit (just a bit).

By the way, “people first” is an invention just as much in the private sector as it is in the public sector. It just makes people feel good!
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:07
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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LJ

I read your post and it made me think of something I have thought about for several years.

We have the CASWOs conference where WOs tell CAS about the state of the nation.

Sqn bosses also have the opportunity to feed back to CAS quite regularly.

The one group who has no direct conduit (and I mean unfiltered without the spin of the Sqn Boss) to CAS is the JOs. And, since I’m a pilot, what I really mean here is the JO pilots.

There are roughly 30000 currently in the RAF. From memory I think there are just shy of 2000 pilots of all ranks. Most of the flying (both operationally and locally) is done by JO pilots. They are the ones who are keeping the ‘Air’ in the name of the organisation. They are also basically ignored wholesale.

I’m not suggesting a Union but what I am suggesting is that maybe there should be a CASJOs conference. An opportunity for each flying unit (by all means expand it to all trades but that is not my area of expertise) to pick a genuine representative (not a thruster chosen by the powers that be but a ‘good lad’ who will say it how it is) who gets a chance to tell CAS exactly what is affecting those on the shop floor without fear of reprisal.

I think we ignore the JO cadre at our peril. Especially in the flying branch. For it is they who are doing our fighting (flying) and appear to be becoming more and more disillusioned. Denying them a voice is not helping.

Just my take on things. Obvs.

BV
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:33
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
As opposed to the advantage ratio for the Typhoon?

They lose 20 assets, we lose one. Who has been disrupted the most?

Respectfully, it looks like Diane Abbott has done your maths for you.
You miss the point, do we really think it has that advantage? 🤣
I feel it’s more than just a tad over optimistic, perhaps even a little too arrogant.

Last edited by Countdown begins; 3rd Dec 2019 at 19:46.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
So what 1,000 Wg Cdr+ are these then? Also, have you any idea the amount of tripe that has been espoused by your suggested outsourced consultants that effectively regurgitate what they have been told after consulting with Service personnel? The average spend was over £5,000 per consultant per day back in 2011 - what have we got to show for that investment?(rhetorical question)

https://spendmatters.com/uk/mod-payi...ants-evidence/

You want some ‘lateral thinking’? Empower your personnel with at least 15 years of experience to inform your leadership without diluting their message. Also, trust your people and delegate until you start to feel uncomfortable; then back it off a bit (just a bit).

By the way, “people first” is an invention just as much in the private sector as it is in the public sector. It just makes people feel good!
For the 1000+?? I suggest you google the word ‘list’ and do some detective work. It shouldn’t take long! Adding RAF will shorten the time spent.
You hit the nail later in your post, though. Experience is key, and not understood. Once you have their views where should it go? The top won’t take it unstaffed, so whatever you do it will not be served fresh.
If ‘people first’ is just an invention, why waste the electrons and ink. If it’s a fantasy then you lose your people, surely better to say nothing, then you never actually fail?
I do thank you for your 8 year old link though, from the age of serious austerity, I’m sure it’s useful and relevant. Just for my benefit, could you tell me what the total cost for Project Gateway was? That was a well run, though late project that hacked us all off at the time, but now I hear it’s working well.

Last edited by Countdown begins; 3rd Dec 2019 at 20:32.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 20:07
  #45 (permalink)  

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BV. Nail, head. Agreed. Some things never change. I left, as a JO aircrew, over 40 years ago, and it was the same then.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 21:11
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Countdown begins View Post

You miss the point, do we really think it has that advantage? 🤣
I feel it’s more than just a tad over optimistic, perhaps even a little too arrogant.
It surely can't be that far off.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 08:21
  #47 (permalink)  
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"At £1200 per consultant per day..."

That's another problem - they're getting rubbish consultants if they're only charging £1200 a day - a decent management consultant is on over £ 500 an hour
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 09:51
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I read your post and it made me think of something I have thought about for several years.

We have the CASWOs conference where WOs tell CAS about the state of the nation.

Sqn bosses also have the opportunity to feed back to CAS quite regularly.

The one group who has no direct conduit (and I mean unfiltered without the spin of the Sqn Boss) to CAS is the JOs. And, since I’m a pilot, what I really mean here is the JO pilots.

There are roughly 30000 currently in the RAF. From memory I think there are just shy of 2000 pilots of all ranks. Most of the flying (both operationally and locally) is done by JO pilots. They are the ones who are keeping the ‘Air’ in the name of the organisation. They are also basically ignored wholesale.

I’m not suggesting a Union but what I am suggesting is that maybe there should be a CASJOs conference. An opportunity for each flying unit (by all means expand it to all trades but that is not my area of expertise) to pick a genuine representative (not a thruster chosen by the powers that be but a ‘good lad’ who will say it how it is) who gets a chance to tell CAS exactly what is affecting those on the shop floor without fear of reprisal.

I think we ignore the JO cadre at our peril. Especially in the flying branch. For it is they who are doing our fighting (flying) and appear to be becoming more and more disillusioned. Denying them a voice is not helping.

Just my take on things. Obvs.

BV
Mate, don't over estimate the CASWOs conference, prime example of self licking lollipop. It is attended (largely) by people more interested in notionally creating 4 levels of WO... CASWO, Gp WO, SWO, WO. Hardly giving it to the man. I've met the last 3 CASWOs and despite giving it large about sitting at the top table none of them could provide an example of where they had influenced a decision for the betterment of personnel.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 10:37
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by downsizer View Post
Mate, don't over estimate the CASWOs conference, prime example of self licking lollipop. It is attended (largely) by people more interested in notionally creating 4 levels of WO... CASWO, Gp WO, SWO, WO. Hardly giving it to the man. I've met the last 3 CASWOs and despite giving it large about sitting at the top table none of them could provide an example of where they had influenced a decision for the betterment of personnel.
Could not agree more. It is window dressing at best. The current incumbent brandishes a stick in photographs, why? Reaching WO/MACR was always the pinnacle for the non-commissioned ranks, apparently no longer......
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 11:51
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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As some one who you guys defended or defended it saddens me to hear how the UK forces get treated especially at the individual level. Living where I do near Camberley there are a great many retired service personnel and have heard quite a few stories of the difficulties faced by service families and therefore service personnel.

it seems to me if you like as an end user in the defence world that we really must refocus on what our military objectives are. Forget the foreign involvment unless its aprt of a large multinational force and by that i dont mean 90% US and 10% us.

I do agree that some sort of deal with the US on Airforce hardware seems to work well enough for many EU countries but I dont think we can ever fully trust the USA -its always been America first and in terms of any serious land conflict we always have to be aligned with EU countries just because of Geography so in or out of the Eu we are tied to our neighbours -if a country threatens France it threatens us and vv . On the other hand would Trump trust Corbin or a Democrat trust Johnson
So for me cut back strategic spending-the carriers were a joke from the start and invest properly in people to prevent high wastage rates and in new technology be that smart agile weapons system which may in the end be air or ship-mounted and also take a decision over whether cyber threats are a police or Military/Security matter .

Russia if it is an enemy-I dont think it is personally -thats an EU /Euromatter because of Geography as to Iran if they want to attack Iraq again what can we do about it anyway. Its a matter of adjusting to resources and reality and most important is keeping a dedicated and motivated cadre of military personnel and equipping them to deal witht he 21st Centruy not the cold war or colonial past
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 22:25
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
As some one who you guys defended or defended it saddens me to hear how the UK forces get treated especially at the individual level. Living where I do near Camberley there are a great many retired service personnel and have heard quite a few stories of the difficulties faced by service families and therefore service personnel.

it seems to me if you like as an end user in the defence world that we really must refocus on what our military objectives are. Forget the foreign involvment unless its aprt of a large multinational force and by that i dont mean 90% US and 10% us.

I do agree that some sort of deal with the US on Airforce hardware seems to work well enough for many EU countries but I dont think we can ever fully trust the USA -its always been America first and in terms of any serious land conflict we always have to be aligned with EU countries just because of Geography so in or out of the Eu we are tied to our neighbours -if a country threatens France it threatens us and vv . On the other hand would Trump trust Corbin or a Democrat trust Johnson
So for me cut back strategic spending-the carriers were a joke from the start and invest properly in people to prevent high wastage rates and in new technology be that smart agile weapons system which may in the end be air or ship-mounted and also take a decision over whether cyber threats are a police or Military/Security matter .

Russia if it is an enemy-I dont think it is personally -thats an EU /Euromatter because of Geography as to Iran if they want to attack Iraq again what can we do about it anyway. Its a matter of adjusting to resources and reality and most important is keeping a dedicated and motivated cadre of military personnel and equipping them to deal witht he 21st Centruy not the cold war or colonial past
You personally don't think the Russian Federation is an adversary?

How does the murder and attempted murder of former Russian security services agents on UK soil sound to you, using 'weapons' that even the most sophisticated organised criminal just can't get?

They're an enemy. Just because they aren't recruiting people in to throwing on a suicide IED, and walking in to shopping centre, doesn't make them less of a threat. The UK needs to equip its military with that threat in mind.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 03:06
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"At £1200 per consultant per day..."

That's another problem - they're getting rubbish consultants if they're only charging £1200 a day - a decent management consultant is on over £ 500 an hour
that might be for a one-off consultancy, but across the big 4, that’s about the going rate for each consultant on an enduring contract. On top of that there is the cost for the assignment manager and partner involvement. A principal consultant is about £1500 per day; an analyst under £1000.

Of course that’s not what the individual receives in his or her pay packet, unless you are a freelancer.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 03:45
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
You personally don't think the Russian Federation is an adversary?

How does the murder and attempted murder of former Russian security services agents on UK soil sound to you, using 'weapons' that even the most sophisticated organised criminal just can't get?

They're an enemy. Just because they aren't recruiting people in to throwing on a suicide IED, and walking in to shopping centre, doesn't make them less of a threat. The UK needs to equip its military with that threat in mind.
Russia is definitely a threat, no doubt.

Are they credible, not really.
Are they likely to do anything significant, I REALLY doubt it.
Am I worried about them, not in the slightest.

Ask me about the big country to the South of Russia....

Different league and will be the single biggest threat to the entire world and a true existential threat to the West within the next 2 decades. They scare me a LOT!
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 05:46
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Bob Viking...

"Most of the flying (both operationally and locally) is done by JO pilots. They are the ones who are keeping the ‘Air’ in the name of the organisation."

No other aircrew in the RAF then?... I take it you're a pointy driver then...
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 06:16
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Two Tunnels

If you care to read my whole post you will find that I addressed your concerns.

Yes I am a FJ pilot. As a result that is all I can really talk about with any authority. I have no idea how morale and manning is in other branches.

Instead of being indignant maybe you could just comment on the idea.

BV
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 06:18
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TwoTunnels View Post
Bob Viking...

"Most of the flying (both operationally and locally) is done by JO pilots. They are the ones who are keeping the ‘Air’ in the name of the organisation."

No other aircrew in the RAF then?... I take it you're a pointy driver then...
The RAF has a requirement for 1280 JO pilots, 640 sqn ldr/wg cdr pilots (around half of whom are in staff roles), 340 WSOs at wg cdr and below and 810 NCA of all ranks. So I take it you don't comprehend the difference between 'most' and 'all'...
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 07:43
  #57 (permalink)  
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"Russia is definitely a threat, no doubt. Are they credible, not really."

Spending more than they have for a long time but still not a lot - especially when spread over such a large area and 3 oceans

An awful lot of their kit is 30+ years old and they have a lot of problems keeping anything working - e.g their aircraft carrier.............
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 12:15
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by heights good View Post
Russia is definitely a threat, no doubt.

Are they credible, not really.
Are they likely to do anything significant, I REALLY doubt it.
Am I worried about them, not in the slightest.

Ask me about the big country to the South of Russia....

Different league and will be the single biggest threat to the entire world and a true existential threat to the West within the next 2 decades. They scare me a LOT!
The very big country south of Russia is indeed a far more significant threat.
Russia is an ally of that nation. Russia supplies their military. Any war in Iran would involve Russia.
I also don't believe that Mr. Putin is particularly moral, therefore it's reasonable to assume any war with Russia involved could escalate to nuclear warfare, or at the very least, we could have cruise missiles fired at us with conventional warheads. Therefore the UK needs to make sure its anti-missile defences are top of the line.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 12:34
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"Russia is definitely a threat, no doubt. Are they credible, not really."

Spending more than they have for a long time but still not a lot - especially when spread over such a large area and 3 oceans

An awful lot of their kit is 30+ years old and they have a lot of problems keeping anything working - e.g their aircraft carrier.............

How far out of port do our carriers get before they are sunk? Rather than talking nonsense you should maybe research the Russian navy, and how it has upgraded its 30 year old ships and submarines.
H I Sutton - Covert Shores
They are more than just a credible threat, and they are there...
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...atlantic-92336

What if China were to divert US assets from EUrope to the Pacific, do we continue to ‘high 5’ or do we start saving money by teaching Russian as a second language?

Its a a good job that we have a healthy ratio in the skies, because at sea maybe that is not the case; have a good research of the first link using google as well, before you sit too comfortably.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 13:14
  #60 (permalink)  
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Russia currently is operating around 3 "Borey" SSBN + 1 Typhoon + 7 Deltas - the Deltas are between 30 & 40 years old.

They have 10 Akulas SSN's which are approx 30 years old plus 1 Yasen which is about 6 years old

Also some SSK's and , old Oscars etc

these are split across 3 oceans

It's still a meaningful force but it's about the same as the UK plus France put together - and they are in one ocean.
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