Lossiemouth Upgrades
I have to say, folks, that in all the years I've been reading Pp where Scottish Independence has been discussed, this seems to me to be the most reasonable and mature discussion I've seen. Is that because, as time passes, people are starting to contemplate the possibility Independence may actually occur?!!
I have to say, folks, that in all the years I've been reading Pp where Scottish Independence has been discussed, this seems to me to be the most reasonable and mature discussion I've seen. Is that because, as time passes, people are starting to contemplate the possibility Independence may actually occur?!!
We have seen the Independence Issue grow from within Scotland, rather than being mere bystanders looking at it from without.
We have seen communities divided on the issue mindful that a proud and keenly felt sense of Nationalism is a fundamental part of life in Scotland.
I am a guilty as most for allowing 'thread-creep' on here for which I apologise. I hope the dialog has been worth it.
I respectfully ask, once again ...
''What is it the Independence movement hope to gain, that they do not already have?''
''Has whatever it is, been balanced against what may or may not be lost?''
''What is it that would need to change to make Independent minded Scots happy to stay in the union?''
"what provision is the UK government currently making for the loss of it and the decommissioning costs"
Since the UK has never had a genuine Energy Policy it's what you'd expect - keep whistling a jolly tune and kick the can down the road. On Abandonment the liability sits with the current owners of the facility who are supposed to keep an up to date estimate of what it will cost (due to major advances in technology and actual experience these costs have actually been falling over the last 20 years). In addition when someone like Shell sells to a venture capital based start-up in Aberdeen they either give them some cash or retain a proportion of the liability
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/oil-and-...-and-pipelines
https://oilandgasuk.co.uk/product/de...nsight-report/
the later is good introduction to current issues
Since the UK has never had a genuine Energy Policy it's what you'd expect - keep whistling a jolly tune and kick the can down the road. On Abandonment the liability sits with the current owners of the facility who are supposed to keep an up to date estimate of what it will cost (due to major advances in technology and actual experience these costs have actually been falling over the last 20 years). In addition when someone like Shell sells to a venture capital based start-up in Aberdeen they either give them some cash or retain a proportion of the liability
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/oil-and-...-and-pipelines
https://oilandgasuk.co.uk/product/de...nsight-report/
the later is good introduction to current issues
''What is it the Independence movement hope to gain, that they do not already have?''
A very good question but they will just repeat "INDEPENDENCE" - they want to be free of what they see as English oversight and control. You can argue forever but it's the same cry we heard from the USA, Australia, Ghana, India, Catalonia, Latin America - people don't t like the idea of foreign control - see BREXIT
A very good question but they will just repeat "INDEPENDENCE" - they want to be free of what they see as English oversight and control. You can argue forever but it's the same cry we heard from the USA, Australia, Ghana, India, Catalonia, Latin America - people don't t like the idea of foreign control - see BREXIT
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Scotland would be due assets through negotiations, seeing that they have paid for it through taxation etc. From memory Scotland contributes £3.3bn to the U.K. defence budget. Also the ‘U.K.’ has assets in other countries.. I don’t see that changing much.
It'll probably be a total package of "value" - the Scots may not want half a squadron of F-35's or Typhoons due to running costs going forward - but take it as helicopters or marine patrol vessels instead - or a contribution to their national pension scheme for example
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Interestingly could the US not veto any sale of ex US military aircraft, i.e the F-35 to the likes of Scotland if it was an independent country? The same goes for other fleets, Chinook, Herk etc.
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Last edited by MFC_Fly; 26th Nov 2019 at 14:17.
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As I mentioned in a previous post, according to the SNP's referendum manifesto they have no intention of immediately setting up a driver and vehicle licensing agency or a civil aviation authority. The DVLA bit is probably to reassure Scots that if they moved to a job in England, they wouldn't have to re-register their car after six months (EU rules). Without a CAA they would not be able to be members of the ICAO, a United Nations agency (one wonders if the UN would consider them to be independent enough to be UN members).
As regards the Typhoons and Lossiemouth, I wonder if the SNP realise how few people would be left at the base when all the English RAF personnel who are only there because they were posted there return south of the border.
As regards the Typhoons and Lossiemouth, I wonder if the SNP realise how few people would be left at the base when all the English RAF personnel who are only there because they were posted there return south of the border.
Maybe they think the English will continue to pay for their QRA squadron?
yes but they're likely to see them as a customer for things like the F-16............. got to keep those production lines running
And Mr President owns half of Scotland - he'll be on their side
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No, that was just one line from the SNP list of the composition of an independent Scottish Air Force "equipped initially from a negotiated share of current UK assets". They also list their bucket list for naval and land forces.
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Scotland does have a military presence plus I think the Gunner at Edinburgh Castle is employed by HQ Army Scotland, not the MOD? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders
Thanks for that heads up MFC - here are teh words of wisdom from 2013:-
two frigates from the Royal Navy’s current fleet ■ a command platform for naval operations and development of specialist marine capabilities (from the Royal Navy’s current fleet, following adaptation)
■ four mine counter measure vessels from the Royal Navy’s current fleet ■ two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) to provide security for the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).
However, as the Royal Navy only has four OPVs currently262, a longer lead time for procurement might be necessary ■ four to six patrol boats from the Royal Navy’s current fleet, capable of operating in coastal waters, providing fleet protection and also contributing to securing borders ■ auxiliary support ships (providing support to vessels on operations), which could be secured on a shared basis initially with the rest of the UK These arrangements will require around 2,000 regular and at least 200 reserve personnel.
An army HQ function and an all-arms brigade, with three infantry/marine units, equipped initially from a negotiated share of current UK assets, and supported by:
a deployable Brigade HQ
■ two light armoured reconnaissance units ■ two light artillery units ■ one engineer unit deploying a range of equipment for bridging, mine clearance and engineering functions
■ one aviation unit operating six helicopters for reconnaissance and liaison ■ two communication units ■ one transport unit ■ one logistics unit ■ one medical unit
Special forces, explosives and ordnance disposal teams will bring the total to around 3,500 regular and at least 1,200 reserve personnel. Air forces Key elements of air forces in place at independence, equipped initially from a negotiated share of current UK assets, will secure core tasks, principally the ability to police
Scotland’s airspace, within NATO. ■ an Air Force HQ function (with staff embedded within NATO structures) ■ Scotland will remain part of NATO’s integrated Air Command and Control (AC2) system, initially through agreement with allies to maintain the current arrangements while Scotland establishes and develops our own AC2 personnel and facility within Scotland within five years of independence
■ a Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) squadron incorporating a minimum of 12 Typhoon jets based at Lossiemouth 240 ■ a tactical air transport squadron, including around six Hercules C130J aircraft, and a helicopter squadron ■ flight training through joint arrangements with allies In total this would require around 2,000 regular personnel and around 300 reserve personnel.
two frigates from the Royal Navy’s current fleet ■ a command platform for naval operations and development of specialist marine capabilities (from the Royal Navy’s current fleet, following adaptation)
■ four mine counter measure vessels from the Royal Navy’s current fleet ■ two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) to provide security for the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).
However, as the Royal Navy only has four OPVs currently262, a longer lead time for procurement might be necessary ■ four to six patrol boats from the Royal Navy’s current fleet, capable of operating in coastal waters, providing fleet protection and also contributing to securing borders ■ auxiliary support ships (providing support to vessels on operations), which could be secured on a shared basis initially with the rest of the UK These arrangements will require around 2,000 regular and at least 200 reserve personnel.
An army HQ function and an all-arms brigade, with three infantry/marine units, equipped initially from a negotiated share of current UK assets, and supported by:
a deployable Brigade HQ
■ two light armoured reconnaissance units ■ two light artillery units ■ one engineer unit deploying a range of equipment for bridging, mine clearance and engineering functions
■ one aviation unit operating six helicopters for reconnaissance and liaison ■ two communication units ■ one transport unit ■ one logistics unit ■ one medical unit
Special forces, explosives and ordnance disposal teams will bring the total to around 3,500 regular and at least 1,200 reserve personnel. Air forces Key elements of air forces in place at independence, equipped initially from a negotiated share of current UK assets, will secure core tasks, principally the ability to police
Scotland’s airspace, within NATO. ■ an Air Force HQ function (with staff embedded within NATO structures) ■ Scotland will remain part of NATO’s integrated Air Command and Control (AC2) system, initially through agreement with allies to maintain the current arrangements while Scotland establishes and develops our own AC2 personnel and facility within Scotland within five years of independence
■ a Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) squadron incorporating a minimum of 12 Typhoon jets based at Lossiemouth 240 ■ a tactical air transport squadron, including around six Hercules C130J aircraft, and a helicopter squadron ■ flight training through joint arrangements with allies In total this would require around 2,000 regular personnel and around 300 reserve personnel.
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Keeping the thread drift going - this is a serious question and I'm not denigrating any Scottish people/forces. What, apart from a "Vanity" project, is the point of a Scottish defence force being a major player? Who is going to attack them? Who, unless Ms Sturgeon wants to do a Blair and go on ill conceived foreign adventures, will they go to fight and where? Excepting the NATO Airspace responsibility, what are they going to do? What would be their role in NATO, if it exists in the future, and will they joining Macron's EU army? The Republic of Ireland manage OK with their forces and their Army even do UN work. Scotland would obviously need air and sea assets for Fishery and Oil rig support and possibly MCM vessels which could also do border and drug patrols. SAR and support rotary plus presidential and VIP flight. What is the army going to do and where are they going to need to go? Aid to civil power and UN work or a lot more? Surely the money spent on a very expensive but small QRA etc. would be better spent on the Scottish heath service, roads or schools. As I said at the start this is a serious question - why does Scotland need to be a major player apart from - We have a tradition of always having had strong, very efficient soldiers of which we are justifiably proud.
More continuation of thread drift - I see a major problem with an Independent Scotland joining the EU in the event of the UK leaving the EU. Scotland's biggest trading partner would be a country outside the EU. According to remain it will take years for a UK/EU trading deal so how would Scotland export to England? Remember all the problems being brought up regarding trade between UK/EU/NI and a possible "hard border"? All the talk about where this "hard border" would be - is it between NI/ROI or down the Irish sea. So would there be a "Hard Border" stretching from Gretna to Berwick? We are told there will be queues from London to Dover when the UK leaves so can you imaging queues of lorries full of exports on the A1 from Edinburgh to Berwick or queues from Glasgow to Gretna on the M74 while EU officials check paperwork? LNER trains and the West Coast line stopping for passport and good checks? The English/Scottish border is a lot more porous than the NI/ROI border so how could customs check anything?
More continuation of thread drift - I see a major problem with an Independent Scotland joining the EU in the event of the UK leaving the EU. Scotland's biggest trading partner would be a country outside the EU. According to remain it will take years for a UK/EU trading deal so how would Scotland export to England? Remember all the problems being brought up regarding trade between UK/EU/NI and a possible "hard border"? All the talk about where this "hard border" would be - is it between NI/ROI or down the Irish sea. So would there be a "Hard Border" stretching from Gretna to Berwick? We are told there will be queues from London to Dover when the UK leaves so can you imaging queues of lorries full of exports on the A1 from Edinburgh to Berwick or queues from Glasgow to Gretna on the M74 while EU officials check paperwork? LNER trains and the West Coast line stopping for passport and good checks? The English/Scottish border is a lot more porous than the NI/ROI border so how could customs check anything?
Headstone - the 2013 Manifesto https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf
has their strategy set out in excruciating detail
has their strategy set out in excruciating detail
In the same vein, it seems somewhat surprising that very little appears to have been said, or political capital made (sub judice permitting), about why the SNP suddenly decided that a December election was preferable to one in, say, March?
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Since I can't get an answer, in thread dedicated to the subject...I guess nobody will mind if I speculate?
Based on not a single fact, I think...
The capability won't be truly operational in 2020
There are problems manning it (not just the aircraft, the whole thing)
Half a dozen of those seedcorn folks (some of whom are well old btw) will do a roller or two out of Lossie, and some big wig will sign off on it.
You heard it hear first folks
Based on not a single fact, I think...
The capability won't be truly operational in 2020
There are problems manning it (not just the aircraft, the whole thing)
Half a dozen of those seedcorn folks (some of whom are well old btw) will do a roller or two out of Lossie, and some big wig will sign off on it.
You heard it hear first folks