Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Lossiemouth Upgrades

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Lossiemouth Upgrades

Old 22nd Nov 2019, 09:54
  #61 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 55
Posts: 5,920
How about Roe?
treadigraph is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:14
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
How about Roe?
"Cherry", as in The Honourable and Learned Joanna Cherry, QC, MP. At least it would continue the food theme.

Last edited by alwayslookingup; 22nd Nov 2019 at 11:49.
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:19
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
In 2014 45% of Scots who voted, voted for independence. Five years on, the Scots have seen Brexit 'imposed' by the English, and five more years of 'Tory austerity', my impression is that support for independence and hostility to the Union has increased pretty markedly. Has it tipped as far as 51%? No-one knows for sure, but I suspect that in any Indyref 2, Sturgeon would get her way, unless it happens to coincide with the trial of the odious Mr Salmond........
There has been five local authority by elections in Scotland in the last month. The SNP has come first in four of them, second in the other, three of them were SNP gains from other parties, two were holds. The poll on 12th December will be interesting. I mean, it's not exactly as if the SNP are hiding their wish for Independence, only to spring it when elected, unlike the Lib Dems who said no tuition fees only to support them when the chips were down. Except in Scotland, of course.
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:25
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
In 2014 45% of Scots who voted, voted for independence. Five years on, the Scots have seen Brexit 'imposed' by the English, and five more years of 'Tory austerity', my impression is that support for independence and hostility to the Union has increased pretty markedly. Has it tipped as far as 51%? No-one knows for sure, but I suspect that in any Indyref 2, Sturgeon would get her way, unless it happens to coincide with the trial of the odious Mr Salmond........
The SNP gained the most votes and most Scottish seats in Scotland in the UK General Elections of 2015 & 2017, Scottish Parliament Election 2016 and European Election 2019. And it's not exactly a secret what the SNP wishes to succeed with.
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:30
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chigley
Posts: 137
Would be interested to know just how many servicemen would be happy just to switch to the Scottish Royal Air Force after a successful Independence process? Pay, pensions, opportunities, location -there are many things that would need to be more attractive than they currently are for any Scotsman or Englishman being induced to serve in the SRAF. I think there might be an exodus of personnel to pastures south of Hadrians wall. I don't think there is much support for an independent Scotland for those Scots currently serving in the RAF. I know I wouldn't fancy it!
Jambo Jet is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:48
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by Jambo Jet View Post
Would be interested to know just how many servicemen would be happy just to switch to the Scottish Royal Air Force after a successful Independence process? Pay, pensions, opportunities, location -there are many things that would need to be more attractive than they currently are for any Scotsman or Englishman being induced to serve in the SRAF. I think there might be an exodus of personnel to pastures south of Hadrians wall. I don't think there is much support for an independent Scotland for those Scots currently serving in the RAF. I know I wouldn't fancy it!
That's fine, JJ. But at least you are aware of the issues that would need to be covered and opened up to any future discussions. Nobody has any definitive answers to the questions you have posed, but at least you are a little bit more open minded to it than some of the previous posters above. One last point, I'm not sure it would be called the Scottish Royal Air Force. There's no denying the affection a great many Scots have for the Queen, me included, nationalist or unionist. But as for the rest of the shower....
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:56
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chigley
Posts: 137
It would be interesting to see what wee Jimmy Crankie has to say for herself if someone asks during these upcoming leader debates "Defence for an Independent Scotland...Hows that going to transition then?"
Jambo Jet is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 12:53
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: York
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by Jambo Jet View Post
It would be interesting to see what wee Jimmy Crankie has to say for herself if someone asks during these upcoming leader debates "Defence for an Independent Scotland...Hows that going to transition then?"
They don’t even know how car tax and mot’s would so no chance on defence.
dctyke is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 13:38
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gold Sector
Age: 66
Posts: 152
Berwick upon Tweed

Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
Thought Berwick became English in 1482 when Richard, Duke of Gloucester (later Richard III) recaptured the town.....?

An interesting Wikipedia link, thank you. I know this is ‘thread drift’ but I am honour and duty bound to reply …

We Berwickers are aware that the town has changed hands between Scotland and England thirteen times (so far).
It is one of the four original Scottish Burghs and became an English Borough with a different status to all the others.
The unique situation of divided loyalties and legal institutions lead to the town being included as a separate entity (along with Wales) in documents and ceremonies such as the coronation of English Monarchs.
As the town was last seized in 1482 under conditions of blackmail there are many who doubt the legal nature of its transition.
Of interest the river Tweed which runs through it is by legal definition a Scottish river in its entirety and all activity on it, and on either bank are subject to Scots law.
It only ceased to be a Royal Borough in 2009 as part of the wider structural changes to local government in England which saw the town being handed over to Northumberland County Council.
This was the latest bad move as the Geordie council have never understood Berwick and have neglected it ever since.

The story continues …

HAS59 is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 13:59
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gold Sector
Age: 66
Posts: 152
Scots ...what?

Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
In 2014 45% of Scots who voted, voted for independence. ........
More drifting ...
It's an awkward question but what is meant by Scots?
There are no accepted legal definitions of what is or is not 'Scots'. I know there is a difference between 'Scotch Beef' and 'Scottish Beef' but as for the people well ...
There was such a long and difficult legal battle to get the wording right for the Indi Ref of 2014. As there was no authoritative answer the fudge was proposed 'The People of Scotland' which was taken to be anyone, regardless of place of origin who was residing within the legal boundaries of the territorial lands of Scotland on a given date. It also excluded any person born within those boundaries who was living elsewhere.
It stems from there being NO Scottish people as a race. They/we are tribal by nature (Clans) - the latest of which is Polish - there are distinct religious divides (ever been to Glasgow?).
There is a clear 'us and them' when it comes to the 'central corridor' and anywhere else. Highlands and Islands are culturally different to Borderers and so the mix goes on - each with a locally defined sense of identity.
I may be wrong but my understanding is that the Scottish clans have never, ever, united for anything in their history. They/we will however at the drop of a bonnet unite against anything overtly English (1966 and Thatcher immediately spring to mind).

It may be simple when viewed from outside to think of Scots as being simply 'of Scotland' ... it's not, the people of Scotland are not united.
HAS59 is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 14:48
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,329
They do have minds of their own and are able to use them, despite your trite little comment.
Unless of course if they were 16 or 17 and decided, of their own free will, to go and join ISIS.....only to lose the battle and want to come home upon which the "hand wringers" would tell you that a 16 or 17 year old is not mature enough to make decisions.

Anyway, I thought this thread was going to be about who might be the new Honorary Air Commodore at Lossiemouth....
Wrathmonk is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 16:19
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,329
HAS59 - unless I've misread your post and muddled up the Scottish stations, HRH Duke of York aka Prince Andrew has been Honorary Air Commodore at RAF Lossiemouth since 1996. It's who will replace him that I'm curious about. Meghan perhaps?
Wrathmonk is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2019, 16:25
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gold Sector
Age: 66
Posts: 152
Lossie Andy

Sorry mate - I got all het up again. I hadn't realised the rogue prince was already the Hon Com of Lossie
Apologies for the confusion.
HAS59 is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 10:10
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by alwayslookingup View Post
That's fine, JJ. But at least you are aware of the issues that would need to be covered and opened up to any future discussions. Nobody has any definitive answers to the questions you have posed, but at least you are a little bit more open minded to it than some of the previous posters above. One last point, I'm not sure it would be called the Scottish Royal Air Force. There's no denying the affection a great many Scots have for the Queen, me included, nationalist or unionist. But as for the rest of the shower....
The SNP have been very clear in stating that HM The Queen would remain head of state of an independent Scotland, as part of their falling over backwards to assure Scots that nothing would really change, as in "you'll still get East Enders and Strictly, Ken Bruce on Radio 2" etc. etc. In their manifesto they even stated that they would not be in any hurry to set up a driver and vehicle licensing agency or a civil aviation authority but would continue to use the DVLA in Swansea and the CAA in London.
Alan Baker is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 11:09
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,644
they would not be in any hurry to set up a driver and vehicle licensing agency or a civil aviation authority but would continue to use the DVLA in Swansea and the CAA in London.
Plus Embassies and Consulates all over the world and expect Westminster to pay for it.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 12:11
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Right here, right now
Posts: 244
Originally Posted by alwayslookingup View Post
The SNP gained the most votes and most Scottish seats in Scotland in the UK General Elections of 2015 & 2017, Scottish Parliament Election 2016 and European Election 2019. And it's not exactly a secret what the SNP wishes to succeed with.
That may well be true of an individual party, but when you look at grouping the results into those parties pro-independence (SNP and Greens) and those pro-union (Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems and UKIP) the results are very different...

2015 UK General Election (Scottish votes)...
Pro-indy votes 1,493,641 = 51.5%
Pro-union votes 1,407997 = 48.5%

2016 Scottish Parliament Election...
Pro-indy votes 1,073,069 = 47.3%
Pro-union votes 1,194,433 = 52.7%

2017 UK General Election (Scottish votes)...
Pro-indy votes 983,455 = 37.2%
Pro-union votes 1,659,319 = 62.8%

2019 EU Election (Scottish votes)...
Pro-indy votes 714,156 = 46.3%
Pro-union votes 838,913 = 53.7%

What the results show is that support for independence has actually stayed pretty much the same as the IndyRef vote (and in half the elections actually fallen), and the last real election results covering the whole of Scotland (can't include the EU election as we all know how seriously people take that and this year was purely aBrexit vote) showed a major swing away from the pro-independence parties.

Last edited by MFC_Fly; 23rd Nov 2019 at 12:58. Reason: Forgot to include the 2015 & 2019 results
MFC_Fly is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 16:34
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 351
Yeh but the current PM is pretty toxic in Scotland - he doesn't exactly fit in there................... and the Scots Tories have lost their leader
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 17:54
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by Wrathmonk View Post
Unless of course if they were 16 or 17 and decided, of their own free will, to go and join ISIS.....only to lose the battle and want to come home upon which the "hand wringers" would tell you that a 16 or 17 year old is not mature enough to make decisions.

Anyway, I thought this thread was going to be about who might be the new Honorary Air Commodore at Lossiemouth....
The OP was about Lossie upgrades but by Post 2 it had degenerated into the usual Jockistani bashing. Along the way there has been much prejudice and ill informed comment as well as some fairly well considered comment. I've posed a few questions which nobody's taken on (future QRA/location of nukes). But the fact remains, if/when Scotland becomes independent, a newly independent England will have an awful lot of searching and potentially very expensive defence questions to answer. Why don't we just leave it at that? By the way, oor Nicola aced the debate last night!! And nobody in the audience had the cojones to bring up defence, which I guess shows just how much the average punter worries about it in the general scheme of things.
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 17:57
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by Alan Baker View Post
The SNP have been very clear in stating that HM The Queen would remain head of state of an independent Scotland, as part of their falling over backwards to assure Scots that nothing would really change, as in "you'll still get East Enders and Strictly, Ken Bruce on Radio 2" etc. etc. In their manifesto they even stated that they would not be in any hurry to set up a driver and vehicle licensing agency or a civil aviation authority but would continue to use the DVLA in Swansea and the CAA in London.
And you wonder why many Scots are rejecting the Union?
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2019, 18:26
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 351
"a newly independent England will have an awful lot of searching and potentially very expensive defence questions to answer."

Well that assumes we go for the same level of kit etc as we use now. Operate the current Trident fleet out of the East Coast US for a fee for a few years - I could see it being a great excuse to scrap the Successor programme (thus pleasing everyone from the Treasury to a lot of voters) and maybe building a few more Astutes to keep Barrow busy. You could shop for warships anywhere without having to build them expensively in Scotland. The RAF comes south - maybe having to accept "austere" basing for quite a while without all the expensive support bells & whistles but it's only a few squadrons these days. The Army? Not many up there so back to Catterick or disperse more to the Middle East, Cyprus etc

It's a sad fact but "expensive defence questions" are normally only answered one way in the UK these days - cut the capability.
Asturias56 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.