'Non-Traditional' Aircrew
Just for a laugh. Can anybody tell me under what circumstances the Preliminary Flying Badge ( Budgie wings) could ever have been worn? When issued after FHT on a UAS it was seemingly destined immediately for a back pocket as it was generally looked upon as a bit inappropriate beyond University (reservist) days.
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Not a flying badge
Nutty, I think we've been round this buoy already. There are many personnel who are temporarily attached to a crew for various reasons, ground engineers as you mention, PJIs for paradrops, Air Despatchers for supply drops, etc. They all have one thing in common, they are not part of a regular crew, ie they are not aircrew (though some we learn are honorary).
Cabin Crew are clearly Aircrew and yet not awarded a Brevet. That is an anomaly that needs resolving. As to their rank, that is a matter for the RAF. Anticipating a Catch-22 response that they can only be aircrew if they are Sgts, then my response is to then make them Sgts. If it is not necessary then let them retain their present ranks, acting or substantive. Either way they are RAF Aircrew and should thus wear an RAF Aircrew Brevet.
Finally Nutty, if it is of any comfort to you I overheard a civvie member of cabin crew giving orders to a ground engineer, simply because he was in overalls and his hands were dirty. Like you, I corrected her misunderstanding...
AL1. Please amend the word "Brevet" above to read "Badge" in all cases. I thank you.
Cabin Crew are clearly Aircrew and yet not awarded a Brevet. That is an anomaly that needs resolving. As to their rank, that is a matter for the RAF. Anticipating a Catch-22 response that they can only be aircrew if they are Sgts, then my response is to then make them Sgts. If it is not necessary then let them retain their present ranks, acting or substantive. Either way they are RAF Aircrew and should thus wear an RAF Aircrew Brevet.
Finally Nutty, if it is of any comfort to you I overheard a civvie member of cabin crew giving orders to a ground engineer, simply because he was in overalls and his hands were dirty. Like you, I corrected her misunderstanding...
AL1. Please amend the word "Brevet" above to read "Badge" in all cases. I thank you.
If you’re handing out flying badges to cabin crew retrospectively, without an appropriate aircrew course or even selection and promoting them all to Sgt, does that mean you’ll award GE’s flying badge too? - as they operate in an airborne role and already qualify for RRP ( FC).
They’ll of course then qualify for RRP (Fly) not RRP (FC) - quite a bit of staff work there involved; good luck.
So whilst the MAA acknowledges their aircrew role, how do you propose the instant elevation in rank to sgt tor all cabin crew and the uplift in RRP be laid for? Who would you choose to lose out in order to pay for this endeavour?
It’s a fantastic idea you’ve put forward and defended for every post, but the costs involved I feel you’re side- stepping but it merits equal vigour from your end if you feel so strongly about it.
who would you ‘select’ to take an RRP cut or pay cut to afford to pay for the uplift in wages on rank and uplift of RRP ( fly)? Or do you believe they shouldn’t be paid as aircrew, once elevated to flying badge aircrew status.
Just a question, as I’m sure you’ve thought of the answer
Just for a laugh. Can anybody tell me under what circumstances the Preliminary Flying Badge ( Budgie wings) could ever have been worn? When issued after FHT on a UAS it was seemingly destined immediately for a back pocket as it was generally looked upon as a bit inappropriate beyond University (reservist) days.
I imply from your last comment that there was an earlier practice of doing so by some misguided individuals? I’d have loved to have seen the reaction to that by the RAF College Warrant Officer on parade at IOT!!
Well, Haraka, I was awarded my 'budgie wings' in July 1972 and wore them on my uniform, flying suits and cold weather jacket until I left ULAS for RAFC in autumn '73. Including for the university degree ceremony where I was parade commander of our unruly mob in front of HM the Queen Mum.
The occasional chap turned up at RAFC still wearing his 'budgie wings' as no-one had told him not to. But they came off that evening.
The occasional chap turned up at RAFC still wearing his 'budgie wings' as no-one had told him not to. But they came off that evening.
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Don't forget that the badge was originally for use by the RAuxAF, when they still had flying Squadrons, and was accompanied by preliminary badges for the aircrew cats of Navigator, Air Signaller, Air Engineer and Air Gunner. They would have worn it all the time until fully qualified in their specialisation.
If you’re handing out flying badges to cabin crew retrospectively, without an appropriate aircrew course or even selection and promoting them all to Sgt, does that mean you’ll award GE’s flying badge too? - as they operate in an airborne role and already qualify for RRP ( FC).
They’ll of course then qualify for RRP (Fly) not RRP (FC) - quite a bit of staff work there involved; good luck.
So whilst the MAA acknowledges their aircrew role, how do you propose the instant elevation in rank to sgt tor all cabin crew and the uplift in RRP be laid for? Who would you choose to lose out in order to pay for this endeavour?
It’s a fantastic idea you’ve put forward and defended for every post, but the costs involved I feel you’re side- stepping but it merits equal vigour from your end if you feel so strongly about it.
who would you ‘select’ to take an RRP cut or pay cut to afford to pay for the uplift in wages on rank and uplift of RRP ( fly)? Or do you believe they shouldn’t be paid as aircrew, once elevated to flying badge aircrew status.
Just a question, as I’m sure you’ve thought of the answer
Again and again we get patronising and superior posts all sharing the same theme; that cabin staff are airborne waiters and waitresses and not fit to be recognised as aircrew. That is not only wrong, it undermines their role and is not helped by recruiting them into a ground trade, from which they are alternately posted to air and ground duties.
The reason there are 8 of them on a Voyager isn't because the cabin service requires that number, it is because each one of them is allocated to one of 8 exits from which at a moments notice they must evacuate all the passengers, of which there can be as many as 291. In those frantic seconds the only supervision that counts is what they have learned and practised in training. If those that they are desperately trying to save have an attitude about their status, ability, or fitness to perform those duties then that compromises both their role and Flight Safety.
What is needed is an unambiguous sign that they are full members of the crew and share that unique RAF mark of being aircrew, the aircrew badge. Until then they will be seen by the ignorant and prejudiced as being mere airborne waiters and waitresses. That is no doubt convenient for the bean counters, for staffing, and for those who simply view them with disdain. Those people won't necessarily be onboard though come the time that a Voyager packed full of pax has a major fire emergency culminating in a mass evacuation down the slides. But you might be, so let's give them the training, the support, and the recognition that enables that day to be viewed in retrospect as a vindication of having recognised this latest addition to the varied lists of aircrew, by awarding them an aircrew badge.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 6th Nov 2019 at 22:33.
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But they only do one tour in the air, the rest of their service is / or can be ground based, the first tour is obviously simply a sweetener to get them into what is a mundane job
Even the trade description makes it clear they are not totally air orientated.
After your first flying tour, unless you transfer to 32 (TR) Sqn, you will be employed on the ground, for at least one tour; supporting unit food services with our industry partners or as a member of 3 Mobile Catering Sqn, at RAF Wittering, providing military field catering on Operations and Exercises worldwide. Returning to Cabin Crew duties, after a ground tour, will be voluntary or to meet the need of the Service.
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NOT a Flying Badge
But they only do one tour in the air, the rest of their service is / or can be ground based, the first tour is obviously simply a sweetener to get them into what is a mundane job
Even the trade description makes it clear they are not totally air orientated.
Even the trade description makes it clear they are not totally air orientated.
Air & Ground Steward
Sounds very similar to the Imagery Analysis Branch who wear an "IA" brevet when on airborne duties, but keep wearing it when the majority of the trade is ground based tours. Probably the same would happen here with CC in ground tours if awarded.
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Possibly because the average airman wont even receive a pension worth debating, as the NEM will have them out at the 12 year point, and if they stayed in to LOS20 it would be a pittance. But I get your point, those type of people probably arent even on here in the first place..
6 pages each yes, but you could remove a couple of pages off each for 1970's/80's nostalgia / reminiscence / irrelevance about beards and brevets when we had 150,000 people and 8x Fast Jet fleets. So near enough a match
6 pages each yes, but you could remove a couple of pages off each for 1970's/80's nostalgia / reminiscence / irrelevance about beards and brevets when we had 150,000 people and 8x Fast Jet fleets. So near enough a match
But they only do one tour in the air, the rest of their service is / or can be ground based, the first tour is obviously simply a sweetener to get them into what is a mundane job
Even the trade description makes it clear they are not totally air orientated.
Even the trade description makes it clear they are not totally air orientated.
Air & Ground Steward
If an airline also owned a chain of fast food outlets and rotated its Cabin Crew between one and the other, would you be keen to fly your family on holiday with them? Would the CAA be keen to renew their AOC annually? This casual attitude to Flight Safety says a lot about the RAF, the MAA, and the MOD, but then so does every fatal accident thread on this Forum.
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Cabin Crew need to be fully trained in their primary role, which is saving lives. I wonder how that can be the case here given the present situation.
If an airline also owned a chain of fast food outlets and rotated its Cabin Crew between one and the other, would you be keen to fly your family on holiday with them? Would the CAA be keen to renew their AOC annually? This casual attitude to Flight Safety says a lot about the RAF, the MAA
If an airline also owned a chain of fast food outlets and rotated its Cabin Crew between one and the other, would you be keen to fly your family on holiday with them? Would the CAA be keen to renew their AOC annually? This casual attitude to Flight Safety says a lot about the RAF, the MAA
Would you want to go on holiday with an airline that posts its PILOTS to and from ground roles?? Oh but the RAF do that!!
i don’t think it’s a casual attitude to flight safety, whether you’re a pilot, NCA or cabin crew, we can all do flying tours interspersed by ground tours, no one gets back into an aircraft without the appropriate training.
Plenty of people in the civil sector have breaks in flying and return to it.
Door Slider, thanks for the reassurance that RAF Cabin Crew training is as good as if not better than Air Tanker civil training. If that is as good as, if not better, than other civil airline training then we cannot expect more. Time as ever will be the judge.
So RAF cabin crew are fully trained for their aircrew role. If the RAF has any other hoops for them to jump through before it gives them their rightful recognition as aircrew then it should in all justice get on with it. The lack of that recognition adversely affects their acceptance as being fully trained and competent. That is unjust.
As for a fast food outfit running an airline, you fly with them by all means, I'd much prefer to fly with a Cabin Crew who are both fully trained and have progressively built up their experience and confidence over the years. The same goes for pilots in my view, but that's perhaps for a different thread...
So RAF cabin crew are fully trained for their aircrew role. If the RAF has any other hoops for them to jump through before it gives them their rightful recognition as aircrew then it should in all justice get on with it. The lack of that recognition adversely affects their acceptance as being fully trained and competent. That is unjust.
As for a fast food outfit running an airline, you fly with them by all means, I'd much prefer to fly with a Cabin Crew who are both fully trained and have progressively built up their experience and confidence over the years. The same goes for pilots in my view, but that's perhaps for a different thread...
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“If the RAF has got itself into a corner where it is handing out aircrew badges to those who perform their duties from the ground while withholding them from those who perform them in the air and as part of a crew, then it is for the RAF to resolve this absurdity, not me.”
Which branch / trade are you referring to here chugalug- who you believe perform duties from the ground but are awarded an aircrew badge I wonder?
Which branch / trade are you referring to here chugalug- who you believe perform duties from the ground but are awarded an aircrew badge I wonder?
“If the RAF has got itself into a corner where it is handing out aircrew badges to those who perform their duties from the ground while withholding them from those who perform them in the air and as part of a crew, then it is for the RAF to resolve this absurdity, not me.”
Which branch / trade are you referring to here chugalug- who you believe perform duties from the ground but are awarded an aircrew badge I wonder?
Which branch / trade are you referring to here chugalug- who you believe perform duties from the ground but are awarded an aircrew badge I wonder?
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Chugalug surely can’t mean those operators, as they’ve completed a course of flying training and pass EFT before getting anywhere near an RPAS. Loose argument there.
I’d still love to hear chugalug’s reasoning if indeed that is to what the comment refers, as it implies they should not be awarded a flying badge / it’s absurd they be awarded in the first place....
Chugalug surely can’t mean those operators, as they’ve completed a course of flying training and pass EFT before getting anywhere near an RPAS. Loose argument there.
I’d still love to hear chugalug’s reasoning if indeed that is to what the comment refers, as it implies they should not be awarded a flying badge / it’s absurd they be awarded in the first place....
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NOT a Flying Badge
LR guessed right, I was referring to RPAS operators. The only point I am making is that if aircrew badges are awarded to those who perform their duties from the ground while denying them to aircrew who perform their duties in the air then that is patently absurd. I don't imply either of the options you attribute to me, I simply point out the illogical dead end that the RAF has got itself into. It's Deja Vu all over again of course. Here is how it all started:-
I understand now- so to make it all comparable across the board- award anyone with an airborne role a Flying Badge, and pay them appropriately, and possibly promote them as required? reasonable....
AGE's, Cabin Crew, Air Dispatchers now all be awarded Flying Badges and RRP (Fly)- sounds like a great idea (even if just the badge award as you point out, doesn't have to be pay!)
I 100% agree with AGE's being awarded for the record.
Cabin Crew are aircrew according to the regulator as you quite rightly point out.
I imagine some Pay and Policy experts from HW might be observing this thread and may just do that as a retention inventive possibly
whilst we are at it- Movements operators, RAFP and RAF Regt regularly fly with crew in AM- shall they be awarded too? not to mention Aeromed qualified personnel.
Right! lets just give everyone a Flying Badge unless PAX! not sure where you drawl the line here- Chugalug any ideas? or are you just in the CC corner on this one I wonder?
I understand now- so to make it all comparable across the board- award anyone with an airborne role a Flying Badge, and pay them appropriately, and possibly promote them as required? reasonable....
AGE's, Cabin Crew, Air Dispatchers now all be awarded Flying Badges and RRP (Fly)- sounds like a great idea (even if just the badge award as you point out, doesn't have to be pay!)
I 100% agree with AGE's being awarded for the record.
Cabin Crew are aircrew according to the regulator as you quite rightly point out.
I imagine some Pay and Policy experts from HW might be observing this thread and may just do that as a retention inventive possibly
whilst we are at it- Movements operators, RAFP and RAF Regt regularly fly with crew in AM- shall they be awarded too? not to mention Aeromed qualified personnel.
Right! lets just give everyone a Flying Badge unless PAX! not sure where you drawl the line here- Chugalug any ideas? or are you just in the CC corner on this one I wonder?
AGE's, Cabin Crew, Air Dispatchers now all be awarded Flying Badges and RRP (Fly)- sounds like a great idea (even if just the badge award as you point out, doesn't have to be pay!)
I 100% agree with AGE's being awarded for the record.
Cabin Crew are aircrew according to the regulator as you quite rightly point out.
I imagine some Pay and Policy experts from HW might be observing this thread and may just do that as a retention inventive possibly
whilst we are at it- Movements operators, RAFP and RAF Regt regularly fly with crew in AM- shall they be awarded too? not to mention Aeromed qualified personnel.
Right! lets just give everyone a Flying Badge unless PAX! not sure where you drawl the line here- Chugalug any ideas? or are you just in the CC corner on this one I wonder?
It is important that all members of a normally constituted crew be accepted by all as aircrew so that they act together as a team despite their varying specialities. That is especially important when faced with emergency, which is the raison d'etre for having cabin crew.
At the moment the recruiting and badging of RAF Cabin Crew signifies that they are not aircrew despite the military air regulator insisting that they are. Such a dichotomy speaks volumes about the RAF's attitude to Air Safety. The MAA is already in thrall to the MOD and fatally compromised by its acceptance of Haddon-Cave's "Golden Period of Airworthiness". The combination of a dysfunctional military air regulator and an obdurate operator is illustrated clearly in this case of military aircrew who are ignored as such by the RAF.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 9th Nov 2019 at 12:51.
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2. Branches are for Officers, there is no Intelligence Branch Officer with the IA Flying Badge (Brevet)
3. The Intelligence Analyst Trade are eligible for the IA Flying Badge, provided:
a. They are a qualified Imagery Analyst having complete the 4 month Phase 3 UKAIC Course.
b They have passed the Pre-Aircrew selection board
c They have passed a generic Aircrew Ground School at Cranwell (Airmanship, CRM, Emergency Drills etc...)
d Aeromedical
e. They then start rear crew training as an Airborne IA.
f. They are awarded the flying badge at award of LCR
g . They are confirmed to retain the Flying badge upon award of CR.