Heads Up! Fighter Pilot: The Real Top Gun
...
Dear Pr oo ne,
I’m fascinated …. I wasn’t in the RAF, and it would take me a while to assemble a proper list, but ….. OTTOMH I can’t think of a single year since 1945 when some of our military aviators were not facing a real risk of being shot at or having to shoot up some other SOB, with the purpose of making him die for his country, rather than our guys dying for mine (and yours.)
Even if there was no actual shooting, surely you cannot be unaware that many more of our chaps ‘died for our country’ just practicing for the actualite.
It doesn’t really matter what they thought when they volunteered (or were conscripted), by the time they were qualified, most of them would have realised what might happen during their service, and continued serving in that clear knowledge. The few who did not like that thought, were sensible and left. And my great respect to them for doing so.
So please forgive me for suggesting that you (you did write “we” - and “there was never any risk”) must have had a very sheltered “-RAF FJ” (your profile claim) existence.
Knowing (by honest and/or genuine repute, if not personally) several of the chaps you are word-jousting with, as a matter of honour, I really could not let this history-jousting go without some kind of challenge.
So could I please politely inquire as to what time scale or “-RAF FJ” position you had in mind for your “fact” that “we” (whoever you are) “never had to do it for real, and there was never any risk of having to do it for real.”
Yours respectfully, .......... LFH
nb crossed with wiggy and LB - same sentiments.
...
Dear Pr oo ne,
I’m fascinated …. I wasn’t in the RAF, and it would take me a while to assemble a proper list, but ….. OTTOMH I can’t think of a single year since 1945 when some of our military aviators were not facing a real risk of being shot at or having to shoot up some other SOB, with the purpose of making him die for his country, rather than our guys dying for mine (and yours.)
Even if there was no actual shooting, surely you cannot be unaware that many more of our chaps ‘died for our country’ just practicing for the actualite.
It doesn’t really matter what they thought when they volunteered (or were conscripted), by the time they were qualified, most of them would have realised what might happen during their service, and continued serving in that clear knowledge. The few who did not like that thought, were sensible and left. And my great respect to them for doing so.
So please forgive me for suggesting that you (you did write “we” - and “there was never any risk”) must have had a very sheltered “-RAF FJ” (your profile claim) existence.
Knowing (by honest and/or genuine repute, if not personally) several of the chaps you are word-jousting with, as a matter of honour, I really could not let this history-jousting go without some kind of challenge.
So could I please politely inquire as to what time scale or “-RAF FJ” position you had in mind for your “fact” that “we” (whoever you are) “never had to do it for real, and there was never any risk of having to do it for real.”
Yours respectfully, .......... LFH
nb crossed with wiggy and LB - same sentiments.
...
As I have said previously, I was referring to the difference between the current, as in 2019, crop of FJ aircrew and my generation, which was late 60's early 70's, and I was doing it to praise the current mob and express my admiration for them. I'm sorry, but whilst not wishing to downplay the exploits of the SH lot in NI and the exploits of the AT folks during the period, my generation never woke up in the morning knowing that we were going to be outbriefing to fly against REAL SAMs, fighters, AAA that were going to be doing their best to kill us, with a sterile check against being captured and all that may have entailed FOR REAL. I rehearsed and practised it endlessly, but we never had to do it for real and we knew it.
Disturbingly, I find myself agreeing with Pr00ne on this subject. This thread started with a TV programme about FJ training so FJ is what we are discussing. I know that throughout the Cold War, lots of fleets were “doing it for real”. SH in NI, various AT roles, Nimrods (as they never ceased to remind us) etc.. In the FJ world we stood Q, both nuclear and AD, but deep down we ( or I at least) never thought it would turn into a shooting war. I was a FJ back seater during the Cold War. My son is a current FJ aviator, and I can tell you that there is a world of difference between our two worlds. Whilst my generation lost an obscene number of people to accidents I submit that is not the same as spending hours and hours over parts of the world where you have the likes of Taliban or ISIS waiting fir you on the ground, and where delivering weapons on them is an everyday occurrence. I freely admit that, as a fluke of timing and posting I never did it for real. If, during that period others did; good for them.
PS. My credentials:
Nav 1972-2000
Vulcans, Buccaneers, Tornado GR1
4000 hours
Never dropped a bomb in anger.
PS. My credentials:
Nav 1972-2000
Vulcans, Buccaneers, Tornado GR1
4000 hours
Never dropped a bomb in anger.
Last edited by Timelord; 27th Aug 2019 at 09:44.
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In the early time-scale under discussion by pr00ne, the RAF had no Fast Jets that I recall, only fighters, bombers, transports and trainers. Oh, and helicopters. In the early 60s, Hunters were involved on active operations in the Middle East and the Far East.
On 1st March 1961, Air Forces, Middle East was formed as the RAF element in a new unified command, Middle East Command. The resident Hunter squadrons were kept busy flying ground attack operations against insurgents from Yemen.
Later in 1961, Iraq made its first rumblings about taking over Kuwait, which asked for support from UK. The RAF pulled its Middle East Hunter FGA9 Squadrons (8 & 43) from Aden and 208 from Kenya to the Gulf, and eventually Gulf War minus 1 did not become active. But my guess is that the pilots believed that they were about to go active on each sortie they flew during that period. I believe that Lightnings were also involve from Saudi, with some seconded RAF pilots. Even two UK-based Hunter squadrons, 1 and 54, were involved by their pilots flying replacement aircraft to the Gulf-based squadrons.
In the first half of the 60s, RAF Hunters, and I believe Javelins, were flown on operations against Indonesian regular and irregular forces during Confrontation. I guess that there was a tightening of the muscles of the FGA pilots when they set up their live attack runs at targets in the jungle. I know of at least two awards of the DFC for operations under fire, but these were to helicopter pilots.
There is no doubt that the Cold War warriors did their duty. However, the question, "What did you do in the war, daddy", will have the response, "Which war do you mean?" from the survivors of several overseas adventures.
On 1st March 1961, Air Forces, Middle East was formed as the RAF element in a new unified command, Middle East Command. The resident Hunter squadrons were kept busy flying ground attack operations against insurgents from Yemen.
Later in 1961, Iraq made its first rumblings about taking over Kuwait, which asked for support from UK. The RAF pulled its Middle East Hunter FGA9 Squadrons (8 & 43) from Aden and 208 from Kenya to the Gulf, and eventually Gulf War minus 1 did not become active. But my guess is that the pilots believed that they were about to go active on each sortie they flew during that period. I believe that Lightnings were also involve from Saudi, with some seconded RAF pilots. Even two UK-based Hunter squadrons, 1 and 54, were involved by their pilots flying replacement aircraft to the Gulf-based squadrons.
In the first half of the 60s, RAF Hunters, and I believe Javelins, were flown on operations against Indonesian regular and irregular forces during Confrontation. I guess that there was a tightening of the muscles of the FGA pilots when they set up their live attack runs at targets in the jungle. I know of at least two awards of the DFC for operations under fire, but these were to helicopter pilots.
There is no doubt that the Cold War warriors did their duty. However, the question, "What did you do in the war, daddy", will have the response, "Which war do you mean?" from the survivors of several overseas adventures.
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For those getting upset about the chap who said he had a problem with authority, I watched it again, and he actually says "I wouldn't say I have a problem with authority" albeit the important "n't" is quite faint,
he then goes on to say, however he likes to go and de-stress on his windsurfer, so is actually to be commended for having that kind of mindset, suck it up at work and blow off steam after.
Some of you need to crank up the old hearing aids before pressing the outrage button
he then goes on to say, however he likes to go and de-stress on his windsurfer, so is actually to be commended for having that kind of mindset, suck it up at work and blow off steam after.
Some of you need to crank up the old hearing aids before pressing the outrage button
In the early time-scale under discussion by pr00ne, the RAF had no Fast Jets that I recall, only fighters, bombers, transports and trainers. Oh, and helicopters. In the early 60s, Hunters were involved on active operations in the Middle East and the Far East.
On 1st March 1961, Air Forces, Middle East was formed as the RAF element in a new unified command, Middle East Command. The resident Hunter squadrons were kept busy flying ground attack operations against insurgents from Yemen.
Later in 1961, Iraq made its first rumblings about taking over Kuwait, which asked for support from UK. The RAF pulled its Middle East Hunter FGA9 Squadrons (8 & 43) from Aden and 208 from Kenya to the Gulf, and eventually Gulf War minus 1 did not become active. But my guess is that the pilots believed that they were about to go active on each sortie they flew during that period. I believe that Lightnings were also involve from Saudi, with some seconded RAF pilots. Even two UK-based Hunter squadrons, 1 and 54, were involved by their pilots flying replacement aircraft to the Gulf-based squadrons.
In the first half of the 60s, RAF Hunters, and I believe Javelins, were flown on operations against Indonesian regular and irregular forces during Confrontation. I guess that there was a tightening of the muscles of the FGA pilots when they set up their live attack runs at targets in the jungle. I know of at least two awards of the DFC for operations under fire, but these were to helicopter pilots.
There is no doubt that the Cold War warriors did their duty. However, the question, "What did you do in the war, daddy", will have the response, "Which war do you mean?" from the survivors of several overseas adventures.
On 1st March 1961, Air Forces, Middle East was formed as the RAF element in a new unified command, Middle East Command. The resident Hunter squadrons were kept busy flying ground attack operations against insurgents from Yemen.
Later in 1961, Iraq made its first rumblings about taking over Kuwait, which asked for support from UK. The RAF pulled its Middle East Hunter FGA9 Squadrons (8 & 43) from Aden and 208 from Kenya to the Gulf, and eventually Gulf War minus 1 did not become active. But my guess is that the pilots believed that they were about to go active on each sortie they flew during that period. I believe that Lightnings were also involve from Saudi, with some seconded RAF pilots. Even two UK-based Hunter squadrons, 1 and 54, were involved by their pilots flying replacement aircraft to the Gulf-based squadrons.
In the first half of the 60s, RAF Hunters, and I believe Javelins, were flown on operations against Indonesian regular and irregular forces during Confrontation. I guess that there was a tightening of the muscles of the FGA pilots when they set up their live attack runs at targets in the jungle. I know of at least two awards of the DFC for operations under fire, but these were to helicopter pilots.
There is no doubt that the Cold War warriors did their duty. However, the question, "What did you do in the war, daddy", will have the response, "Which war do you mean?" from the survivors of several overseas adventures.
1961 was FIFTY EIGHT years ago!
The RAF I joined most certainly had fast jets, Group One it was called I think. We called them Fast Jets. The groundcrew called them Jets. The RAF pulled out of Aden in 1967, confrontation was over in 1967 too. The Cold War era I referred to was in Germany and the UK and it was hard work, challenging and bloody good fun, but nobody was shooting at us or trying to capture and kill us. The RAF FJ world has been on active real world operations constantly since 1991. They fly for real, they do it for real. They join up knowing that. They train knowing that. That is a vastly different world from the era of Tacevals, Minivals, Maxevals , STCAAME and 2 TAF Weapons competitions that was my lot.
I am NOT trying to deride my generation. You play the hand you are dealt. I was just a bit miffed at all the doddery old hands who were derisively having a go at the current generation they see portrayed in this TV series.
I am just mightily impressed by the current RAF FJ aircrew and all those who have served since 1990.
Pr oo ne
I knew what you meant anyway. I agree that the current generation are doing a fine job. And are taught by very capable instructors.
I have been perceived as having a go at the older generation as well. That was not my intent either.
Nobody should think they can throw spears at a group of people and not expect return fire.
All generations have done and are doing a great job. They just may appear to be very different from each other when viewed on TV.
Anyway, let’s see what tonight’s episode brings.
BV
I have been perceived as having a go at the older generation as well. That was not my intent either.
Nobody should think they can throw spears at a group of people and not expect return fire.
All generations have done and are doing a great job. They just may appear to be very different from each other when viewed on TV.
Anyway, let’s see what tonight’s episode brings.
BV
The nuclear armed Canberras in RAFG, and the V Force, were fairly fast and faced a very real threat every time the hooter went. My first two tours in RAFG were certainly not for the faint-hearted, as the invasion of Czecho by the Warsaw Pact demonstrated.
Pr00ne
It is a bit unreasonable for you to have a go at Wyvern, after all you gave the dates 1946-81 as a period when nothing nasty happened in the FJ world and as he pointed out there were plenty of Hunter pilots wondering what would happen to them if they banged-out over Aden. It is probably not well known that some 25-30 RAF pilots flew Sabres with the USAF in Korea. Quite a bit went on in the period you gave.
Timelord
I too 'begat' a FJ pilot son - he was on the Jag' OCU during GW1 but saw plenty of action over Bosnia and N Iraq between then and '97 when he went off to Lossie as an instructor. After he did the TP Course in 2000/01 he went to Boscombe and then talked his boss into letting him get CR ready again over N Iraq. I told him he was off his rocker - he now had a wife and 3 children at home, why put yourself in harm's way? After all he had nothing to prove! But then he never did take any notice of what his dad said! Incidentally we tried steering his younger brother towards a career in the RAF, but one day he announced he could not do what his brother did i.e. fly over hostile territory - 'Neither could I' I replied, so he followed me into civil ATC where he is paid well, has loads of time-off and doesn't have to put up with a lot of the crap associated with service life.
Flugplatz
No offence taken or meant!
Sadly so many people on PPRuNe these days just want to have a falling-out - all so bloody unnecessary!
It is a bit unreasonable for you to have a go at Wyvern, after all you gave the dates 1946-81 as a period when nothing nasty happened in the FJ world and as he pointed out there were plenty of Hunter pilots wondering what would happen to them if they banged-out over Aden. It is probably not well known that some 25-30 RAF pilots flew Sabres with the USAF in Korea. Quite a bit went on in the period you gave.
Timelord
I too 'begat' a FJ pilot son - he was on the Jag' OCU during GW1 but saw plenty of action over Bosnia and N Iraq between then and '97 when he went off to Lossie as an instructor. After he did the TP Course in 2000/01 he went to Boscombe and then talked his boss into letting him get CR ready again over N Iraq. I told him he was off his rocker - he now had a wife and 3 children at home, why put yourself in harm's way? After all he had nothing to prove! But then he never did take any notice of what his dad said! Incidentally we tried steering his younger brother towards a career in the RAF, but one day he announced he could not do what his brother did i.e. fly over hostile territory - 'Neither could I' I replied, so he followed me into civil ATC where he is paid well, has loads of time-off and doesn't have to put up with a lot of the crap associated with service life.
Flugplatz
No offence taken or meant!
Sadly so many people on PPRuNe these days just want to have a falling-out - all so bloody unnecessary!
Brian 48nav,
Fair point. 46 to 81 was indeed a bit steep, I was really referring to the RAF I knew which was late 60's and early 70's.
langleybaston,
Sorry, the nuclear armed Canberra's in RAFG did NOT face a threat as they never ever took off! The hooters were all for exercise, never for real. I was on nuclear QRA, dying of boredom was the only threat I ever faced. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia there was never even the slightest concern that they were going to cross the border, and they went out of their way to make sure that Western Intelligence knew that.
I agree that life in RAFG was at times hectic and busy. But at no stage did I ever feel that I was going to be shot down, captured or tortured.
Fair point. 46 to 81 was indeed a bit steep, I was really referring to the RAF I knew which was late 60's and early 70's.
langleybaston,
Sorry, the nuclear armed Canberra's in RAFG did NOT face a threat as they never ever took off! The hooters were all for exercise, never for real. I was on nuclear QRA, dying of boredom was the only threat I ever faced. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia there was never even the slightest concern that they were going to cross the border, and they went out of their way to make sure that Western Intelligence knew that.
I agree that life in RAFG was at times hectic and busy. But at no stage did I ever feel that I was going to be shot down, captured or tortured.
Also, early 70's was Belize and the Harriers. Nasty lot just over the border who were not averse to setting jungle fires upwind of the "base". Ever tried getting a mobile AR1 on its wheels and pushing it away from the oncoming flames?
IG
IG
At the risk of starting some 'my war was more serious than yours' drift, in 1990 I was sprung from being a UAS QFI back to captaining the VC10K, as a reinforcement crew for GW1. So I found myself in KKIA as the shooting war started in January-which included a fair number of Scud attacks...
On about Day3, I was getting ready to go in to fly when we had another air raid warning. Then the usual boom-thump as the Patriot battery hoofed off their rockets. But soon after, my room-mate announced that they'd just tannoyed 'NBC Black'...
"It's Black", he yelled.
I was contemplating my knees on the porcelain throne at the time, so replied "I doubt it - but it's certainly Black in here!".
NBC state was soon downgraded - it seems someone had driven a truck too close to a CAM, which after one sniff of the exhaust went nuts. But the alternative NBC detectors were still chirping happily in their cage (yes, really - a pair of LPO'd canaries!), so the excellent Kiwi Ground Defence Cdr realised the 20th century kit wasn't as reliable. Good chap that Kiwi Warrant Officer - he once said to OC KKIA "Sir, perhaps you ought to arrest me now - because if that idiot doesn't shut up, I'm going to deck him!". He was referring to a panicking Sqn Ldr mover who thought he knew more about Ground Defence matters than he did - merely because he was a Sqn Ldr...
And now back to our regular broadcast!
On about Day3, I was getting ready to go in to fly when we had another air raid warning. Then the usual boom-thump as the Patriot battery hoofed off their rockets. But soon after, my room-mate announced that they'd just tannoyed 'NBC Black'...
"It's Black", he yelled.
I was contemplating my knees on the porcelain throne at the time, so replied "I doubt it - but it's certainly Black in here!".
NBC state was soon downgraded - it seems someone had driven a truck too close to a CAM, which after one sniff of the exhaust went nuts. But the alternative NBC detectors were still chirping happily in their cage (yes, really - a pair of LPO'd canaries!), so the excellent Kiwi Ground Defence Cdr realised the 20th century kit wasn't as reliable. Good chap that Kiwi Warrant Officer - he once said to OC KKIA "Sir, perhaps you ought to arrest me now - because if that idiot doesn't shut up, I'm going to deck him!". He was referring to a panicking Sqn Ldr mover who thought he knew more about Ground Defence matters than he did - merely because he was a Sqn Ldr...
And now back to our regular broadcast!
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Aug 2019 at 15:31.
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Only just caught up with the first one.
I actually thought it was good. Yes there’s more “ mate “ , “ buddy “ than in older times, but the young instructor looked about 25 and the studies about 20 ( other than the poor bugger who’d taken 9 years to get that far ). And it’s Generation Y/Z of course.
Id have liked a bit more gen on the F35 training prior to Bally’s solo, as they didn’t mention that it’s a single seater , and seeing the sim would have been of interest.
I’m sure they’ll do a fine job either way.
I actually thought it was good. Yes there’s more “ mate “ , “ buddy “ than in older times, but the young instructor looked about 25 and the studies about 20 ( other than the poor bugger who’d taken 9 years to get that far ). And it’s Generation Y/Z of course.
Id have liked a bit more gen on the F35 training prior to Bally’s solo, as they didn’t mention that it’s a single seater , and seeing the sim would have been of interest.
I’m sure they’ll do a fine job either way.
Quote:
The hooters were all for exercise,
Not true. I was on night duty at EDUO when the hooter went for Czecho.
... any Int shared with the West had not filtered very far down.
The hooters were all for exercise,
Not true. I was on night duty at EDUO when the hooter went for Czecho.
... any Int shared with the West had not filtered very far down.
langleybaston,
But nobody flew, nobody was scrambled and nobody faced a threat. Defence cuts continued, down sizing was not halted and don't forget that the 1968 RAFG had NO conventional attack capability whatsoever, it was pure Nuclear QRA, recce and AD. The conventional capability only arrived with the F-4, Harriers and Buccaneers in 1970.
But nobody flew, nobody was scrambled and nobody faced a threat. Defence cuts continued, down sizing was not halted and don't forget that the 1968 RAFG had NO conventional attack capability whatsoever, it was pure Nuclear QRA, recce and AD. The conventional capability only arrived with the F-4, Harriers and Buccaneers in 1970.
hoodie,
The only option was nuclear in Germany in 1968. I bet folk DID know that they weren't going anywhere.
The only option was nuclear in Germany in 1968. I bet folk DID know that they weren't going anywhere.
I believe that 19 and 92 Lightnings manning Battleflight at Gutersloh policed the IGB fully armed. Nobody who was scrambled knew what he would find.
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In the 1950's and early 60's all RAFG Battle flight aircraft flew fully armed. This gave rise to a near blue on blue when I think a 14 or 20 Sqdn. Hunter fired a short burst at his buddy but fortunately missed.
From 58 to 61 13 Sqn had a monthly milk run out of Aden. Mocha-Hodeida-Sana-Taiz. There was nothing they had to trouble us but it would have been a long walk home if things went wrong. In the 61 Iraq- kuwait confrontation 13 flew numerous sorties over Iraq. I was on my way home by then but my nav got caught up in it.
Things have changed a bit re tanking since my day. Into the waiting position, references, bit of power and 'jobs a gudun' It now seem you have a 'mad stab' and if you miss perform DACT with the tanker...