Heads Up! Fighter Pilot: The Real Top Gun
Hot Nestea sounds unbelievably vile. Wasn't some 'instant tea' mix included in Emergency Ration tins at one time?
Latterly, Nestea seems to have been a form of that unpleasant emetic known as 'Iced Tea', so beloved by those across the Pond, presumably as an alternative to other alcohol-free or virtually alcohol-free drinks, such as Budweiser?
For all its sins, apart from Earl Grey, NAAFI did at least sell the best tea bags there were at one point (those which came in an orange-coloured box). Do they still exist, or have they too fallen foul of contractorization?
Latterly, Nestea seems to have been a form of that unpleasant emetic known as 'Iced Tea', so beloved by those across the Pond, presumably as an alternative to other alcohol-free or virtually alcohol-free drinks, such as Budweiser?
For all its sins, apart from Earl Grey, NAAFI did at least sell the best tea bags there were at one point (those which came in an orange-coloured box). Do they still exist, or have they too fallen foul of contractorization?
Timelord,
Loved every minute of my 32 weeks at 2 ANS Gaydon in '66 - great Course Cdr for 88 ( Ted Mears sadly long gone ), great Flt Cdr GD Stu Ward later Sqn Ldr Ops at Gan then Akrotiri and lot of others I could name. Sadly I didn't like 1 ANS Stradishall, partly because on AL between the 2 units I started going out with a girl back in Camberley I had fancied for a couple of years - the lovely Anne, now my wife of 52 years - and also we had some right arseholes on our instructional syndicate ( mainly ex-bomber men ), 2 of whom we named Noddy and Big Ears. The latter died last year. I found it nauseating that a 40+ Flt Lt ( Noddy ) grovelled and shook in front of a 32 yr old Sqn Ldr!
Thankfully a new proper instructor arrived, the great Brian Weatherly ex-Hastings and Brits. It was he who told me that there was a possibility that someone from our course would be posted to the, as yet ,not in service Herc' and that would be me. As it turned out I was to be the first of an avalanche of 1st tourists posted onto the Herc' from '67 onwards.
So, as far as we, and those posted onto the Andover, Argosy, Twin Pioneer etc , were concerned Nav' School was doing a good job in preparing us for our roles. The not so good students were posted to be back seaters on pointy things!
Loved every minute of my 32 weeks at 2 ANS Gaydon in '66 - great Course Cdr for 88 ( Ted Mears sadly long gone ), great Flt Cdr GD Stu Ward later Sqn Ldr Ops at Gan then Akrotiri and lot of others I could name. Sadly I didn't like 1 ANS Stradishall, partly because on AL between the 2 units I started going out with a girl back in Camberley I had fancied for a couple of years - the lovely Anne, now my wife of 52 years - and also we had some right arseholes on our instructional syndicate ( mainly ex-bomber men ), 2 of whom we named Noddy and Big Ears. The latter died last year. I found it nauseating that a 40+ Flt Lt ( Noddy ) grovelled and shook in front of a 32 yr old Sqn Ldr!
Thankfully a new proper instructor arrived, the great Brian Weatherly ex-Hastings and Brits. It was he who told me that there was a possibility that someone from our course would be posted to the, as yet ,not in service Herc' and that would be me. As it turned out I was to be the first of an avalanche of 1st tourists posted onto the Herc' from '67 onwards.
So, as far as we, and those posted onto the Andover, Argosy, Twin Pioneer etc , were concerned Nav' School was doing a good job in preparing us for our roles. The not so good students were posted to be back seaters on pointy things!
Tea bags!?
On a par with gas fired BBQ, surely?
Yorkshire Leaf Tea, and not the "hard water" muck is surely the benchmark.
On a par with gas fired BBQ, surely?
Yorkshire Leaf Tea, and not the "hard water" muck is surely the benchmark.
Brian,
Are you saying those old 'wind dependant' empire-hopping transport types needed the services of a actual navigator more than the two-hour combat-radius of the fast zippy things?
Flug
Are you saying those old 'wind dependant' empire-hopping transport types needed the services of a actual navigator more than the two-hour combat-radius of the fast zippy things?
Flug
Thread Starter
Brian 48nav
Girls from Camberley - makes me think of the woman from Camberley who inspired the most famous middle-brow love poem of the 20th century, John Betjeman's 'A Subaltern's Love Song'
..and congratulations on 52-years of marriage!
WT
started going out with a girl back in Camberley I had fancied for a couple of years - the lovely Anne, now my wife of 52 years
Miss J. Hunter Dunn, Miss J. Hunter Dunn,
Furnish'd and burnish'd by Aldershot sun,
What strenuous singles we played after tea,
We in the tournament - you against me!
Love-thirty, love-forty, oh! weakness of joy,
The speed of a swallow, the grace of a boy,
With carefullest carelessness, gaily you won,
I am weak from your loveliness, Joan Hunter Dunn.
Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn,
How mad I am, sad I am, glad that you won,
The warm-handled racket is back in its press,
But my shock-headed victor, she loves me no less.
Her father's euonymus shines as we walk,
And swing past the summer-house, buried in talk,
And cool the verandah that welcomes us in
To the six-o'clock news and a lime-juice and gin.
The scent of the conifers, sound of the bath,
The view from my bedroom of moss-dappled path,
As I struggle with double-end evening tie,
For we dance at the Golf Club, my victor and I.
On the floor of her bedroom lie blazer and shorts,
And the cream-coloured walls are be-trophied with sports,
And westering, questioning settles the sun,
On your low-leaded window, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.
The Hillman is waiting, the light's in the hall,
The pictures of Egypt are bright on the wall,
My sweet, I am standing beside the oak stair
And there on the landing's the light on your hair.
By roads "not adopted", by woodlanded ways,
She drove to the club in the late summer haze,
Into nine-o'clock Camberley, heavy with bells
And mushroomy, pine-woody, evergreen smells.
Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn,
I can hear from the car park the dance has begun,
Oh! Surrey twilight! importunate band!
Oh! strongly adorable tennis-girl's hand!
Around us are Rovers and Austins afar,
Above us the intimate roof of the car,
And here on my right is the girl of my choice,
With the tilt of her nose and the chime of her voice.
And the scent of her wrap, and the words never said,
And the ominous, ominous dancing ahead.
We sat in the car park till twenty to one
And now I'm engaged to Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.
Furnish'd and burnish'd by Aldershot sun,
What strenuous singles we played after tea,
We in the tournament - you against me!
Love-thirty, love-forty, oh! weakness of joy,
The speed of a swallow, the grace of a boy,
With carefullest carelessness, gaily you won,
I am weak from your loveliness, Joan Hunter Dunn.
Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn,
How mad I am, sad I am, glad that you won,
The warm-handled racket is back in its press,
But my shock-headed victor, she loves me no less.
Her father's euonymus shines as we walk,
And swing past the summer-house, buried in talk,
And cool the verandah that welcomes us in
To the six-o'clock news and a lime-juice and gin.
The scent of the conifers, sound of the bath,
The view from my bedroom of moss-dappled path,
As I struggle with double-end evening tie,
For we dance at the Golf Club, my victor and I.
On the floor of her bedroom lie blazer and shorts,
And the cream-coloured walls are be-trophied with sports,
And westering, questioning settles the sun,
On your low-leaded window, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.
The Hillman is waiting, the light's in the hall,
The pictures of Egypt are bright on the wall,
My sweet, I am standing beside the oak stair
And there on the landing's the light on your hair.
By roads "not adopted", by woodlanded ways,
She drove to the club in the late summer haze,
Into nine-o'clock Camberley, heavy with bells
And mushroomy, pine-woody, evergreen smells.
Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn,
I can hear from the car park the dance has begun,
Oh! Surrey twilight! importunate band!
Oh! strongly adorable tennis-girl's hand!
Around us are Rovers and Austins afar,
Above us the intimate roof of the car,
And here on my right is the girl of my choice,
With the tilt of her nose and the chime of her voice.
And the scent of her wrap, and the words never said,
And the ominous, ominous dancing ahead.
We sat in the car park till twenty to one
And now I'm engaged to Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.
WT
Thanks WT - one of my favourite poems by one of my favourite poets. Betjeman getting in references to his beloved suburban architecture. Cant abide the drivel churned out by the present poet laureate, not helped by her flat, monotonous delivery.
Well done Brian - only two years behind you in the marriage stakes.
Well done Brian - only two years behind you in the marriage stakes.
Flugplatz
I omitted to put one of those smiley things with my post - the lovely Anne, my technical adviser, wasn't around to advise me!
I have a golden rule with social media - I try never to make a comment that I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone's face in the pub. However when I was at Changi in the late 60s, 20 SQN and 74 over at Tengah flew pointy things and had no need at all of the Vasco de Gama types like me ( Hunters and Lightnings for those not in the know ) and I would imagine the navs on 45 & 81 ( Canberras ) took a fair bit of joshing in Tengah OM bar.
Over the years I think postings from Nav' School reflected 2 things; need i.e vacancies and secondly whichever fleet was 'flavour of the month' at the time. At certain times the top studes were going to V Force, other times to the Shackleton, late 60s the Herc' and from about 72' the VC10. I left at the end of '73 ( because I was always going to put my lovely Camberley Girl ahead of the RAF ) and can't comment on post then.
Warm Toast
Thank you for that poem - my Camberley Girl has just printed it off. Thanks for the congrats' too!
TTN
Many thanks too!
SORRY for the thread drifting away folks - back to my bath chair and hot chocolate.
I omitted to put one of those smiley things with my post - the lovely Anne, my technical adviser, wasn't around to advise me!
I have a golden rule with social media - I try never to make a comment that I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone's face in the pub. However when I was at Changi in the late 60s, 20 SQN and 74 over at Tengah flew pointy things and had no need at all of the Vasco de Gama types like me ( Hunters and Lightnings for those not in the know ) and I would imagine the navs on 45 & 81 ( Canberras ) took a fair bit of joshing in Tengah OM bar.
Over the years I think postings from Nav' School reflected 2 things; need i.e vacancies and secondly whichever fleet was 'flavour of the month' at the time. At certain times the top studes were going to V Force, other times to the Shackleton, late 60s the Herc' and from about 72' the VC10. I left at the end of '73 ( because I was always going to put my lovely Camberley Girl ahead of the RAF ) and can't comment on post then.
Warm Toast
Thank you for that poem - my Camberley Girl has just printed it off. Thanks for the congrats' too!
TTN
Many thanks too!
SORRY for the thread drifting away folks - back to my bath chair and hot chocolate.
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 26th Aug 2019 at 07:22. Reason: missing e
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TTN somewhat biased in his acknowledgement of Betjeman, since the Bells which summoned the poet in school days summoned also TTN in employment post-Royal Air Force. The same Bells summoned me, prior to the smell of polish in a South Cerney hut, at a salary of £620 p.a. and a very comfortable Common Room existence.
In the 1980's, a particularly good nav. student, of the original Fighter Pilot era, could manage an instructional sortie in all aspects as well as moi, and had the capability, as a former nurse, to care for me on some blasted heath should my errors result in us leaving the jet. This student did not address me as 'Sir.'
In the 1980's, a particularly good nav. student, of the original Fighter Pilot era, could manage an instructional sortie in all aspects as well as moi, and had the capability, as a former nurse, to care for me on some blasted heath should my errors result in us leaving the jet. This student did not address me as 'Sir.'
Last edited by JENKINS; 26th Aug 2019 at 09:23.
Some great thread drift here! But back to the original ....
I finally found the time to watch the first episode and so watched it in the context of having read this thread first. My overriding thought regarding how QFIs and students referred to each other was whether or not due respect was shown in both directions and I felt that it was, as it was some 40+ years ago when I was at Valley. Back then it would have been disrespectful not to call your QFI 'sir' as that was the protocol of the time. Now, if the protocol is to call everyone 'mate' then so be it and, perhaps, to call ones Flt Lt QFI 'sir' may actually be disrespectful. I am still in contact with some of my QFIs from training days and we are long term friends. I am also in contact with some of the students from my first instructional tour almost 30 years ago and, again, we are friends.
When we started IOT at Cranwell (we were all Pilot Officers) the College Warrant Officer, in his first address to the course, said "Gentlemen, while you are here I will call you sir and you will call me sir. The difference is that you will mean it". It was said with the sardonic sense of humour that few other than RAF Regiment SNCOs have, and we all had the greatest respect for him for the rest of the course.
I finally found the time to watch the first episode and so watched it in the context of having read this thread first. My overriding thought regarding how QFIs and students referred to each other was whether or not due respect was shown in both directions and I felt that it was, as it was some 40+ years ago when I was at Valley. Back then it would have been disrespectful not to call your QFI 'sir' as that was the protocol of the time. Now, if the protocol is to call everyone 'mate' then so be it and, perhaps, to call ones Flt Lt QFI 'sir' may actually be disrespectful. I am still in contact with some of my QFIs from training days and we are long term friends. I am also in contact with some of the students from my first instructional tour almost 30 years ago and, again, we are friends.
When we started IOT at Cranwell (we were all Pilot Officers) the College Warrant Officer, in his first address to the course, said "Gentlemen, while you are here I will call you sir and you will call me sir. The difference is that you will mean it". It was said with the sardonic sense of humour that few other than RAF Regiment SNCOs have, and we all had the greatest respect for him for the rest of the course.
Jenkins gosh how did you remember that? I have to say my brief spell at Marlborough was very happy, in marked contrast to Betjeman, who was pretty miserable there. Called in at the Polly tearoom recently and had a cup of tea, but resisted the enormous slices of cake on offer!
Whether Carrier or terrain - allows pilot to ascertain suitability of landing zone for touchdown.
Herod
[QUOTE=Incidentally, I believe that since 1.4.1918 there has never been a day when the RAF were not on active service somewhere in the world. A record to be proud of, whatever role.[/QUOTE]
Not sure about pre WW2 but in the post war years I think 1968 was the only year we were not on active service somewhere.
Aaron.
Not sure about pre WW2 but in the post war years I think 1968 was the only year we were not on active service somewhere.
Aaron.
Aaron,
I recall reading that 1968 was the only year since WW2 that not a single British serviceman lost their life on ops.
The Herc' crews were involved in taking soldiers from Singapore to help deal with an insurrection in Mauritius that year and also IIRC flying Met plods to deal with strife in Anguilla. Also Andovers and Hercs' of FEAF flew lots of sorties into Saigon with Red Cross supplies - not sure if that counts as active service. On one occasion a crew returned to their U/S Herc' in the morning to find a few bullet holes in the tailplane - apparently there had been a firefight when some VC tried to get on the airport during the night. Glad I was safely asleep in Singapore!
LOMCEVAK
That's spooky you coming on board just then! My lovely wife ( have I mentioned her already? ) gave birth in Changi 50 years ago last April to a future colleague of yours at ETPS - Shaun.
B48N
I recall reading that 1968 was the only year since WW2 that not a single British serviceman lost their life on ops.
The Herc' crews were involved in taking soldiers from Singapore to help deal with an insurrection in Mauritius that year and also IIRC flying Met plods to deal with strife in Anguilla. Also Andovers and Hercs' of FEAF flew lots of sorties into Saigon with Red Cross supplies - not sure if that counts as active service. On one occasion a crew returned to their U/S Herc' in the morning to find a few bullet holes in the tailplane - apparently there had been a firefight when some VC tried to get on the airport during the night. Glad I was safely asleep in Singapore!
LOMCEVAK
That's spooky you coming on board just then! My lovely wife ( have I mentioned her already? ) gave birth in Changi 50 years ago last April to a future colleague of yours at ETPS - Shaun.
B48N
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 26th Aug 2019 at 11:32. Reason: addition
I went through the system in the mid-80s. At the start, all QFIs were Sir, 24/7.
As we got more experienced, the younger ones were more relaxed and we were on first name terms with them, firstly in the Mess, then at work outside of the brief-debrief period.
As I progressed through the training system, the relaxation increased until by the time I reached the Tornado OCU, it was a very relaxed atmosphere because by then, there was no need for Sir in the cockpit.
I don't see how that is any different to what was on the programme.
In early training today, it's always Sir from brief to debrief, "You have control" "I have control, Sir" but outside that, there are no issues at all with first name terms, m8 or anything else. It works well.
What worked back in the 50s or 60s or later was relevant to then. It's not relevant to now. The students today are better than we were, the training is far more intense with far less time to master any given skill. And it works. Sorry if that upsets some.
As we got more experienced, the younger ones were more relaxed and we were on first name terms with them, firstly in the Mess, then at work outside of the brief-debrief period.
As I progressed through the training system, the relaxation increased until by the time I reached the Tornado OCU, it was a very relaxed atmosphere because by then, there was no need for Sir in the cockpit.
I don't see how that is any different to what was on the programme.
In early training today, it's always Sir from brief to debrief, "You have control" "I have control, Sir" but outside that, there are no issues at all with first name terms, m8 or anything else. It works well.
What worked back in the 50s or 60s or later was relevant to then. It's not relevant to now. The students today are better than we were, the training is far more intense with far less time to master any given skill. And it works. Sorry if that upsets some.
There is a halfway house between Sir and Mate - they could always just use their first names - seems to have worked for me for 30 plus years instructing.
Brian,
I wasn't taking umbrage
just genuinely wondering about the 'art' of navigating in the 50s/60s without quite so much of the bells and whistles. About 10 years ago I took a job east of Asia flying un-pressurised aircraft in remote locations and suddenly found I needed to remember (and use) nav. stuff that I never thought I would need! (Monsoon etc.) so I have the greatest respect for anyone doing long trips with few land or sea marks and using a variety of methods to get where they need to be.
Flug
I wasn't taking umbrage
just genuinely wondering about the 'art' of navigating in the 50s/60s without quite so much of the bells and whistles. About 10 years ago I took a job east of Asia flying un-pressurised aircraft in remote locations and suddenly found I needed to remember (and use) nav. stuff that I never thought I would need! (Monsoon etc.) so I have the greatest respect for anyone doing long trips with few land or sea marks and using a variety of methods to get where they need to be.Flug
Langleybaston,
Oh, for fastjet aircrew or our equivalent, 1946 to 1981 and 1983 to 1990.
Oh, for fastjet aircrew or our equivalent, 1946 to 1981 and 1983 to 1990.
Apologies for being late on parade and late aboard the minor outrage bus but even though my generation (in my case front line in the eighties) didn't fight a war "for real" as I recall it in the fast jet world at that time we were losing roughly an airframe a month, probably more, and perhaps a dozen aircrew a year, much of that down to the standard of the "kit" we had to work with, the tasks we were set and the nature of the operation, so please don't play down what we/you did.
That is in no way meant to trivialise what current men and women in the front line now do - and TBH as an ex driver, F-4, Air Defence, with a vague understanding of a B-Scope , I'd give my right thingy 'ollcky thing to have a go in the F-35.
That is in no way meant to trivialise what current men and women in the front line now do - and TBH as an ex driver, F-4, Air Defence, with a vague understanding of a B-Scope , I'd give my right thingy 'ollcky thing to have a go in the F-35.
wiggy,
Fair point. I was really not trying to play down what my generation did, but rather express my complete and total admiration for the current crop of FJ aircrew, and indeed ANY RAF aircrew from 1991 onwards to the present day.