'Eject' versus 'Bailout'

[OK465]

In the Phantom the selector valve control was called the 'Command Selector Handle' and the checklist action was 'to rotate or not rotate the handle', no use of the term 'command eject' on the ground. I preferred the 'not rotate' philosophy, but it was a front seater option. (Hours of single-seat hubris.)

You certainly would never have an 'orientation flight' rider or VIP even touch it. As F-16GUY says these folks generally are just 'hanging on' and hoping they won't have to use the 'bag'.

But back to the original discussion of USAF v Navy terminology. I believe there is also a significant difference in the Navy pre-eject vs USAF pre-bailout briefing for the 'time permitting' controlled 'ejection/bailout/We hereby relinquish all connection to and responsibility for the machine' situation. The final briefing item:

The USAF terminology is "I will see you in the bar."

The Navy says "I will see you in the raft."

[pontifex]

TTN,
When just rotated in one of our funships one dawn T/O you may remember when a flock of seaguls was collected. All four donks wavered a bit but still kept going. The AEO (bless has cottons) said calmly "Captain please remember I removed your pins". So there was no doubt in any of the crew's minds as to what executive order would have been given. It would have been without doubt "BAILOUT" times 3. I don't think the co-pilot would have needed any order!

[Ewan Whosearmy]

What's the RAF terminology for getting out of the jet quick-sharp on the ground?

I posted in the original thread on this (Lonewolgf linked to it in post #2), but the main reason (as it was explained to me) that the USAF goes with "Bailout" is because they use "Egress" on the ground. There was a fatality (1980s I think), where the A/C called for an "egress" as he was unstrapping, but the WSO heard "eject" and pulled the handles.

[weemonkey]

Originally Posted by F-16GUY

And the EPAF countries and all the other non native english speakers who fly the F-16 around the world.....

I think it makes good sense.

-We will have to use the ejection seat shortly if the engine does not relight
-I want you to establish the propper seating position for ejection
-Check that you are properly strapped in for ejection

If you have ever flown with inexperienced pax in the backseat of a fighter, you would know how overwhelmed they tend to be on the first few rides, and how much of their normal capacity is lost once they are strapped in and the canopy is closed. Furthermore, with all the noises in the cockpit, it would be fairly easy to miss hear what was said in those 3 sentences above, especially in a situation where one i scared ****less.

So what happens if/ when the driver is incapacitated between the EJECT bit and the BAILOUT COMMAND??

Or Vice Versa even???



On the positive side it probably got someone a well deserved promotion.

[Timelord]

Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy

What's the RAF terminology for getting out of the jet quick-sharp on the ground?

I posted in the original thread on this (Lonewolgf linked to it in post #2), but the main reason (as it was explained to me) that the USAF goes with "Bailout" is because they use "Egress" on the ground. There was a fatality (1980s I think), where the A/C called for an "egress" as he was unstrapping, but the WSO heard "eject" and pulled the handles.

I’m pretty sure we (Buccaneer and Tornado) used: “Emergency ground egress GO”

[Timelord]

I think there was a discussion about this a while ago, but in a 2 seat aircraft with zero zero ejection seats, the moment you switch from an ejection option to an emergency ground egress has to be clearly defined and understood. It’s no good having one putting the pins in and unstrapping while the other pulls the handle as, I believe, has happened.

[Doctor Cruces]

Originally Posted by F-16GUY

And the EPAF countries and all the other non native english speakers who fly the F-16 around the world.....

I think it makes good sense.

-We will have to use the ejection seat shortly if the engine does not relight
-I want you to establish the propper seating position for ejection
-Check that you are properly strapped in for ejection

If you have ever flown with inexperienced pax in the backseat of a fighter, you would know how overwhelmed they tend to be on the first few rides, and how much of their normal capacity is lost once they are strapped in and the canopy is closed. Furthermore, with all the noises in the cockpit, it would be fairly easy to miss hear what was said in those 3 sentences above, especially in a situation where one i scared ****less.

Good point!

[NutLoose]

I suppose it's something to do with not confusing eject with something similar, rather like British ships of old shouting shoot for the main guns as opposed to fire, thus avoiding any confusion with warnings the ship is on fire during combat.


Mind you, bailout might have naval aviators looking for the bucket

[Tankertrashnav]

Pontifex - funnily enough I was thinking of that incident only the other day when that Russian Airbus had a very short trip before ending up in a field. If only it had been fitted with Sapphires there would have been no problem!

[tartare]

So when you come to do the deed - how far out does the handle come - does it hit a stop?
Is the `bang' virtually instantaneous?

Two things focused my mind.
Putting the pins in the little holder thingy (don't drop them Pike) yep - this seat is now live.
And with the jet on the brakes - hearing in my helmet "...if we have engine failure on take off, I shall call Eject, Eject, Eject..."

[Just This Once...]

Originally Posted by Easy Street

On Tornados there were essentially 3 levels of preparedness:

1) Carry out the ‘Abandoning’ drill from the checklist. This culminated in a call of ‘EJECT EJECT EJECT’ with the teaching...

Reasonably certain LOMCEVAK can remember the Tornado procedures, save for flying FJ types with 2 seats but no trainer option, 2 seats that may or may not have a trainer option in the back, pure single-seat only, normally single-seat but with 2-seat version all in a mix with different seating arrangements, different users, nations and languages. Plenty opportunity for confusion.

I used to think that the urgency and tone was a major part of an ejection call, until a crew on a dark night in a Tornado over the water that went something like this:

[Background of lots of front-rear-front comms and FRC shuffling by rear seat pilot as CWP lights danced around faster than ever experienced in the sim...]

Front seat: "... [calm voice] ... oh and I have no control, err no... no control... we eject... yes..."

Rear seat: Looks up briefly from paper-and-thumb frenzy "... [quizzical tone]...err.. you're kidding me..."

Cue big bang and blinding flash of rockets in front of him, followed by a bigger and more painful bang with head/face/palm/FRC/thigh all trying to occupy the same space.

[Timelord]

Originally Posted by tartare

So when you come to do the deed - how far out does the handle come - does it hit a stop?
Is the `bang' virtually instantaneous?

Two things focused my mind.
Putting the pins in the little holder thingy (don't drop them Pike) yep - this seat is now live.
And with the jet on the brakes - hearing in my helmet "...if we have engine failure on take off, I shall call Eject, Eject, Eject..."

The handle comes out about 3-4 inches and stops. Then there is a pause of a fraction of a second (which feels like about 10 minutes) before things start happening. Probably the canopy going first. Most ground schools and sims have seats that you can practice on.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

OK465

This may have been the incident in question (31:46 on the video):

You Tube

[SASless]

Warning: Thread Drift!

Then the Chinook Pilot story a minute or so later....about the offer to rescue a downed Air Force Pilot who landed in the middle of a retreating Iraqi Republican Guard Armored Division.

No confusion involved in that account.

[OK465]

EW

Thanks for the video. Gruesome incident.

If I'd been a WSO, I think I would have preferred the pilot who didn't want the handle rotated (rear seat command ejection option)....and relieved me of any burden for firing (or misfiring) the high powered pyrotechnic device he was sitting on.

[bobward]

We civvies driving spam cans obviously don't have these fearsome beasties.
However, between crew we do have a verbal shorthand to indicate 'levels of concern'.
Level 1; "That's odd";
Level 2: "I've never seen it do that before";
Level3: "Oh SH1T!!!!!"..

Obviously we can go straight to level3 should circumstances demand...….

[BEagle]

I recall seeing a Tugg cartoon in Flight Deck showing a looker who'd punched out of a 'Vixen descending on his 'chute whilst the cab continued on its merry way with a pole sticking out of the coal hole.

It went something like:
"I thought he said 'Eject!'"
"Bugger. He must have said 'Oh ****!"
"OH ****!!"

After which pilots were advised to be more careful with their choice of expletives!

[treadigraph]

Heard a story years ago about a Jag T.2 taking off. Instructor thought the pupil looked a bit miserable and said "cheer up"; pupil misheard and raised the gear somewhat prematurely followed by the inevitable graunching noises. Any truth in that one? Sounds unlikely to me...

[Runaway Gun]

How did the instructor 'see' the student?

[NutLoose]

On my Jag flight he told me he would call eject eject and if I heard it the third time it would be an echo..