US threatens to withdraw troops from Germany
Well you most likely know that the story of Ukraine as a self standing nation is not a simple one, just as the exact status of Crimea relative to the various nations around it. But it is not really the subject at hand.
A complicated, intertwined history is something for a history book, it shouldn’t be used as a grounds for Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea or its proxy war with Ukraine.
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One thing, not many people now, even in Germany, is that the german federal government pays for a lot of things. The bases are ceased to the US troops for no charge, part of the buliding costs is refunded, clean-up costs when the troops left - which usually are very significant - are taken over.
In the past there has been mourning when the US closed bases. Those were typically cold war installations, e.g. in the Fulda gap which are rural areas, so the troops were an important economic factor for that specific region, however subsidised by the german government itselves.
This is no longer the case. Most US installations are in the Rhein-Main vally or around Stuttgart, where land for business development is very rare. Those estates could very well be used for other purposes.
I don't have the impression many germans feel protected or defended by the presence of US troops. However there was much discussions about the bases being used for scetchy OPs like rendition flights or drone assassinations. Maybe this is not considered as much of a threat.
In the past there has been mourning when the US closed bases. Those were typically cold war installations, e.g. in the Fulda gap which are rural areas, so the troops were an important economic factor for that specific region, however subsidised by the german government itselves.
This is no longer the case. Most US installations are in the Rhein-Main vally or around Stuttgart, where land for business development is very rare. Those estates could very well be used for other purposes.
I don't have the impression many germans feel protected or defended by the presence of US troops. However there was much discussions about the bases being used for scetchy OPs like rendition flights or drone assassinations. Maybe this is not considered as much of a threat.
Last edited by BDAttitude; 17th Aug 2019 at 20:39.
One thing, not many people now, even in Germany, is that the german federal government pays for a lot of things. The bases are ceased to the US troops for no charge, part of the buliding costs is refunded, clean-up costs when the troops left - which usually are very significant - are taken over.
In the past there has been mourning when the US closed bases. Those were typically cold war installations, e.g. in the Fulda gap which are rural areas, so the troops were an important economic factor for that specific region, however subsidised by the german government itselves.
This is no longer the case. Most US installations are in the Rhein-Main vally or around Stuttgart, where land for business development is very rare. Those estates could very well be used for other purposes.
I don't have the impression many germans feel protected or defended by the presence of US troops. However there was much discussions about the bases being used for scetchy OPs like rendition flights or drone assassinations. Maybe this is not considered as much of a threat.
In the past there has been mourning when the US closed bases. Those were typically cold war installations, e.g. in the Fulda gap which are rural areas, so the troops were an important economic factor for that specific region, however subsidised by the german government itselves.
This is no longer the case. Most US installations are in the Rhein-Main vally or around Stuttgart, where land for business development is very rare. Those estates could very well be used for other purposes.
I don't have the impression many germans feel protected or defended by the presence of US troops. However there was much discussions about the bases being used for scetchy OPs like rendition flights or drone assassinations. Maybe this is not considered as much of a threat.
The question isn’t whether the German people feel protected, the question is whether the threat still exists. The answer I’d say is yes. Should the protection of Germany be left to the Germans and other European states, the answer is yes as well.
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I'm no fan of Putin's Russia, but let's be realistic here. Russia is not a military threat to Europe. The EU countries, if they wished to, could be well ahead of Russia, both economically and militarily.
Okay, Russia has lots of nukes. But they have never used them, and have never even threatened to.
Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.
In the face of this relatively minor threat, then, I see little reason why Europe should not be providing its own defense, and the US troops should be brought home. European industrial and economic power should be way beyond what is needed to see off Russia. Euros are always banging on about their superior culture and lifestyle, while characterizing Americans as gun toting redneck Jesus freaks. We should leave them to it.
Perhaps Trump'll get this done soon, too!
Okay, Russia has lots of nukes. But they have never used them, and have never even threatened to.
Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.
In the face of this relatively minor threat, then, I see little reason why Europe should not be providing its own defense, and the US troops should be brought home. European industrial and economic power should be way beyond what is needed to see off Russia. Euros are always banging on about their superior culture and lifestyle, while characterizing Americans as gun toting redneck Jesus freaks. We should leave them to it.
Perhaps Trump'll get this done soon, too!
I agree that Europeans can and should defend Europe mi us the US. I disagree with the assessment about Vlad being a threat to Europe however. Ukraine is a part of Europe and is battling Vlad, Crimea, well that battle is over. I don't think we need to worry about Russian tanks reaching the english channel but the portions of Europe adjacent to mother Russia have a real reason to worry.
couple of years back I was lucky enough to hear a very senior US general give his views on possible further Russian destabilisation in E Europe.
He thought the Baltic states were pretty safe - NATO had reacted, trip wires in place, local Govt's cooling anti- russian gestures etc
He said they were focusing on the Belorussia/Moldova/Romania/Turkey arc where Governments were a lot less stable and politics was very inward looking
He thought the Baltic states were pretty safe - NATO had reacted, trip wires in place, local Govt's cooling anti- russian gestures etc
He said they were focusing on the Belorussia/Moldova/Romania/Turkey arc where Governments were a lot less stable and politics was very inward looking
The thing is Vlad isn't the force he once was - signs are he's beginning to lose interest in keeping his people happy. I reckon he'll be concentrating on keeping ordinary Russians in line rather than embarking on more ill-judged foreign interventions.
When you look at a map you have to say that Germany isn't exactly the front line any more - its a bit like having them in the Channel Islands
Move them to Poland - or if you really want to rattle VP - to the Baltic States
Move them to Poland - or if you really want to rattle VP - to the Baltic States
I'm no fan of Putin's Russia, but let's be realistic here. Russia is not a military threat to Europe. The EU countries, if they wished to, could be well ahead of Russia, both economically and militarily.
Okay, Russia has lots of nukes. But they have never used them, and have never even threatened to.
Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.
In the face of this relatively minor threat, then, I see little reason why Europe should not be providing its own defense, and the US troops should be brought home. European industrial and economic power should be way beyond what is needed to see off Russia. Euros are always banging on about their superior culture and lifestyle, while characterizing Americans as gun toting redneck Jesus freaks. We should leave them to it.
Perhaps Trump'll get this done soon, too!
Okay, Russia has lots of nukes. But they have never used them, and have never even threatened to.
Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.
In the face of this relatively minor threat, then, I see little reason why Europe should not be providing its own defense, and the US troops should be brought home. European industrial and economic power should be way beyond what is needed to see off Russia. Euros are always banging on about their superior culture and lifestyle, while characterizing Americans as gun toting redneck Jesus freaks. We should leave them to it.
Perhaps Trump'll get this done soon, too!
It perhaps should also be remembered that the only time NATO's article 5 has ever been invoked was after 9/11. In other words, the only time that NATO has treated an attack on one of its members as an attack on all was after an attack on the USA.
Last edited by Captivep; 6th Jun 2020 at 10:01. Reason: Spelling
Russia clearly does not want a threat to the "Motherland" on its doorstep. 3 invasions and 40 million dead in just over 100 years does indeed colour their viewpoint here. Sadly in the West we ignore this viewpoint.
The Cold War ended 30 years ago, some wish it to restart because the MIC see profit opportunity.
A plane flight with a US Mil attachee a couple of years ago was interesting. He highlighted when Crimea vote was happening, the total competent Military, viewed by Pentagon in Ukriane was max 20,000, this was able to fight and put up a competent coordinated defence / attack. He said ignore the official figures, he opinioned that Russia had better figures and if Russia had needed they could have gone in from Transnistra / Crimea and Russia and got to Kiev in a week but there were No movements of anything, not even training deployments and they were looking.
I would like to see US Mil withdrawn home, on a day like today, D-DAY it would be good, US has had a lot of the blood of its young men spilt on European soil. I hope not to see anymore happen in any European military conflict, I hope not to see a European military conflict.
There are some in US establishment would will happily spill anybodys blood to enrich themselves and control whatever they can.
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Why are you lot re-arguing a post of mine from a year sgo? Got nothing current?
Evidently this draw down has been negotiated and agreed over many months, not just "impulsive Donny".
At any rate, while you all are on a continual T D S rant, I see bringing more U S troops home as a good thing. Hopefully Donny can get them out of Afghany, too.
Evidently this draw down has been negotiated and agreed over many months, not just "impulsive Donny".
At any rate, while you all are on a continual T D S rant, I see bringing more U S troops home as a good thing. Hopefully Donny can get them out of Afghany, too.
Why are you lot re-arguing a post of mine from a year sgo? Got nothing current?
Evidently this draw down has been negotiated and agreed over many months, not just "impulsive Donny".
At any rate, while you all are on a continual T D S rant, I see bringing more U S troops home as a good thing. Hopefully Donny can get them out of Afghany, too.
Evidently this draw down has been negotiated and agreed over many months, not just "impulsive Donny".
At any rate, while you all are on a continual T D S rant, I see bringing more U S troops home as a good thing. Hopefully Donny can get them out of Afghany, too.
Although he does seem to think everything is...
seems a pretty odd reason to destabilize an enormously successful alliance; it seems incredibly short-sighted and even isolationist not to understand that it is in America's geo-political and economic interests to be part of a strong grouping that encompasses so many countries across two continents.
It’s time for that to change. Europe should lead the defense from a threat from a fellow European nation, not the US.
Germany and many other euro nations have become accustomed to the US providing the heavy lifting for NATO. It’s been grinding on a number of US administrations that the burden for Europe’s defenses has fallen on US taxpayers so don’t make this a Trump thing, it was an Obama thing and a Bush thing prior as well.
It’s time for that to change. Europe should lead the defense from a threat from a fellow European nation, not the US.
It’s time for that to change. Europe should lead the defense from a threat from a fellow European nation, not the US.
I am surprised that it has taken this long to get the footprint down, but as it's a political thing there are a variety of snags and obstacles to various key decisions to leave a particular place. Shutting down DoD facilities in Vieques and Puerto Rico happened at light speed, in comparison. (And while my memory may be hazy, once President Aquino (Philippines) said "You are invited to leave" it didn't take long to start folding the tents. The volcano (Pinatubo) merely hastened what had already begun).
Based on one of the Ike biographies I read, it's been a contentious issue as far back as the lata 50's and early 60's, and when I was a JO, during the 80's, it was a very public harangue on who was or was not meeting their fiscal commitments to the Alliance. (It would crop up in Aviation Week and Space Technology, of all places).
I am surprised that it has taken this long to get the footprint down, but as it's a political thing there are a variety of snags and obstacles to various key decisions to leave a particular place. Shutting down DoD facilities in Vieques and Puerto Rico happened at light speed, in comparison. (And while my memory may be hazy, once President Aquino (Philippines) said "You are invited to leave" it didn't take long to start folding the tents. The volcano (Pinatubo) merely hastened what had already begun).
I am surprised that it has taken this long to get the footprint down, but as it's a political thing there are a variety of snags and obstacles to various key decisions to leave a particular place. Shutting down DoD facilities in Vieques and Puerto Rico happened at light speed, in comparison. (And while my memory may be hazy, once President Aquino (Philippines) said "You are invited to leave" it didn't take long to start folding the tents. The volcano (Pinatubo) merely hastened what had already begun).
There isn’t a conventional threat to Europe that Euro militaries shouldn’t be able to manage.
I really need to renew my sub to AW&ST. War on the Rocks helps with the philosophy, but sometimes you need to read about the hardware as well.