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US threatens to withdraw troops from Germany

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US threatens to withdraw troops from Germany

Old 17th Aug 2019, 17:48
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
How in your mind are water so muddied that there’s a difference in discussion between Crimea and Ikraine?
Well you most likely know that the story of Ukraine as a self standing nation is not a simple one, just as the exact status of Crimea relative to the various nations around it. But it is not really the subject at hand.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 17:56
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post

Well you most likely know that the story of Ukraine as a self standing nation is not a simple one, just as the exact status of Crimea relative to the various nations around it. But it is not really the subject at hand.

A complicated, intertwined history is something for a history book, it shouldn’t be used as a grounds for Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea or its proxy war with Ukraine.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 20:29
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One thing, not many people now, even in Germany, is that the german federal government pays for a lot of things. The bases are ceased to the US troops for no charge, part of the buliding costs is refunded, clean-up costs when the troops left - which usually are very significant - are taken over.
In the past there has been mourning when the US closed bases. Those were typically cold war installations, e.g. in the Fulda gap which are rural areas, so the troops were an important economic factor for that specific region, however subsidised by the german government itselves.
This is no longer the case. Most US installations are in the Rhein-Main vally or around Stuttgart, where land for business development is very rare. Those estates could very well be used for other purposes.
I don't have the impression many germans feel protected or defended by the presence of US troops. However there was much discussions about the bases being used for scetchy OPs like rendition flights or drone assassinations. Maybe this is not considered as much of a threat.

Last edited by BDAttitude; 17th Aug 2019 at 20:39.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 20:47
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Originally Posted by BDAttitude View Post
One thing, not many people now, even in Germany, is that the german federal government pays for a lot of things. The bases are ceased to the US troops for no charge, part of the buliding costs is refunded, clean-up costs when the troops left - which usually are very significant - are taken over.
In the past there has been mourning when the US closed bases. Those were typically cold war installations, e.g. in the Fulda gap which are rural areas, so the troops were an important economic factor for that specific region, however subsidised by the german government itselves.
This is no longer the case. Most US installations are in the Rhein-Main vally or around Stuttgart, where land for business development is very rare. Those estates could very well be used for other purposes.
I don't have the impression many germans feel protected or defended by the presence of US troops. However there was much discussions about the bases being used for scetchy OPs like rendition flights or drone assassinations. Maybe this is not considered as much of a threat.

The question isn’t whether the German people feel protected, the question is whether the threat still exists. The answer I’d say is yes. Should the protection of Germany be left to the Germans and other European states, the answer is yes as well.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 21:08
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I'm no fan of Putin's Russia, but let's be realistic here. Russia is not a military threat to Europe. The EU countries, if they wished to, could be well ahead of Russia, both economically and militarily.

Okay, Russia has lots of nukes. But they have never used them, and have never even threatened to.

Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.

In the face of this relatively minor threat, then, I see little reason why Europe should not be providing its own defense, and the US troops should be brought home. European industrial and economic power should be way beyond what is needed to see off Russia. Euros are always banging on about their superior culture and lifestyle, while characterizing Americans as gun toting redneck Jesus freaks. We should leave them to it.

Perhaps Trump'll get this done soon, too!
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 21:46
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I agree that Europeans can and should defend Europe mi us the US. I disagree with the assessment about Vlad being a threat to Europe however. Ukraine is a part of Europe and is battling Vlad, Crimea, well that battle is over. I don't think we need to worry about Russian tanks reaching the english channel but the portions of Europe adjacent to mother Russia have a real reason to worry.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 07:41
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couple of years back I was lucky enough to hear a very senior US general give his views on possible further Russian destabilisation in E Europe.

He thought the Baltic states were pretty safe - NATO had reacted, trip wires in place, local Govt's cooling anti- russian gestures etc

He said they were focusing on the Belorussia/Moldova/Romania/Turkey arc where Governments were a lot less stable and politics was very inward looking
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 17:36
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The thing is Vlad isn't the force he once was - signs are he's beginning to lose interest in keeping his people happy. I reckon he'll be concentrating on keeping ordinary Russians in line rather than embarking on more ill-judged foreign interventions.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 06:34
  #29 (permalink)  
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-leave-germany

Donald Trump orders 9,500 US troops to leave Germany

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Old 6th Jun 2020, 08:31
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When you look at a map you have to say that Germany isn't exactly the front line any more - its a bit like having them in the Channel Islands

Move them to Poland - or if you really want to rattle VP - to the Baltic States
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 10:00
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
I'm no fan of Putin's Russia, but let's be realistic here. Russia is not a military threat to Europe. The EU countries, if they wished to, could be well ahead of Russia, both economically and militarily.

Okay, Russia has lots of nukes. But they have never used them, and have never even threatened to.

Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.

In the face of this relatively minor threat, then, I see little reason why Europe should not be providing its own defense, and the US troops should be brought home. European industrial and economic power should be way beyond what is needed to see off Russia. Euros are always banging on about their superior culture and lifestyle, while characterizing Americans as gun toting redneck Jesus freaks. We should leave them to it.

Perhaps Trump'll get this done soon, too!
"Euros (whatever they are) banging on about their superior culture" seems a pretty odd reason to destabilize an enormously successful alliance; it seems incredibly short-sighted and even isolationist not to understand that it is in America's geo-political and economic interests to be part of a strong grouping that encompasses so many countries across two continents.

It perhaps should also be remembered that the only time NATO's article 5 has ever been invoked was after 9/11. In other words, the only time that NATO has treated an attack on one of its members as an attack on all was after an attack on the USA.

Last edited by Captivep; 6th Jun 2020 at 10:01. Reason: Spelling
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 11:03
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Putin thinks he is the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. So Crimea, yes. And he would probably make a move on the Baltics if the opportunity arose. Beyond that, he has no interest.
And how is this different from Israel belieiving it is the protector of Jews everywhere ? Pakistan / Saudi believing they are the protector of Muslims everywhere ? No doubt some people will claim Hitler claimed he was the protector of Germans everywhere but does that mean people would equate Hitler with Israel ?

Russia clearly does not want a threat to the "Motherland" on its doorstep. 3 invasions and 40 million dead in just over 100 years does indeed colour their viewpoint here. Sadly in the West we ignore this viewpoint.

The Cold War ended 30 years ago, some wish it to restart because the MIC see profit opportunity.

A plane flight with a US Mil attachee a couple of years ago was interesting. He highlighted when Crimea vote was happening, the total competent Military, viewed by Pentagon in Ukriane was max 20,000, this was able to fight and put up a competent coordinated defence / attack. He said ignore the official figures, he opinioned that Russia had better figures and if Russia had needed they could have gone in from Transnistra / Crimea and Russia and got to Kiev in a week but there were No movements of anything, not even training deployments and they were looking.

I would like to see US Mil withdrawn home, on a day like today, D-DAY it would be good, US has had a lot of the blood of its young men spilt on European soil. I hope not to see anymore happen in any European military conflict, I hope not to see a European military conflict.

There are some in US establishment would will happily spill anybodys blood to enrich themselves and control whatever they can.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 16:52
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Why are you lot re-arguing a post of mine from a year sgo? Got nothing current?

Evidently this draw down has been negotiated and agreed over many months, not just "impulsive Donny".

At any rate, while you all are on a continual T D S rant, I see bringing more U S troops home as a good thing. Hopefully Donny can get them out of Afghany, too.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 17:37
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Next stop Hong Kong then!

To be where the action is of course.

FB
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 17:47
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Why are you lot re-arguing a post of mine from a year sgo? Got nothing current?

Evidently this draw down has been negotiated and agreed over many months, not just "impulsive Donny".

At any rate, while you all are on a continual T D S rant, I see bringing more U S troops home as a good thing. Hopefully Donny can get them out of Afghany, too.
I see very little comment in this rejuvenated thread about the current occupant of the White House; it's more about the impact/merit of the USA taking a more isolationist posture (which it does tend to revert to from time to time) so I think you're being a little over-sensitive; it's not always about Trump.

Although he does seem to think everything is...

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Old 6th Jun 2020, 17:57
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Bring them all home. As was mentioned, the CW ended a long time ago.

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Old 6th Jun 2020, 18:08
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seems a pretty odd reason to destabilize an enormously successful alliance; it seems incredibly short-sighted and even isolationist not to understand that it is in America's geo-political and economic interests to be part of a strong grouping that encompasses so many countries across two continents.
Germany and many other euro nations have become accustomed to the US providing the heavy lifting for NATO. It’s been grinding on a number of US administrations that the burden for Europe’s defenses has fallen on US taxpayers so don’t make this a Trump thing, it was an Obama thing and a Bush thing prior as well.

It’s time for that to change. Europe should lead the defense from a threat from a fellow European nation, not the US.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 18:13
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Germany and many other euro nations have become accustomed to the US providing the heavy lifting for NATO. It’s been grinding on a number of US administrations that the burden for Europe’s defenses has fallen on US taxpayers so don’t make this a Trump thing, it was an Obama thing and a Bush thing prior as well.

It’s time for that to change. Europe should lead the defense from a threat from a fellow European nation, not the US.
Based on one of the Ike biographies I read, it's been a contentious issue as far back as the lata 50's and early 60's, and when I was a JO, during the 80's, it was a very public harangue on who was or was not meeting their fiscal commitments to the Alliance. (It would crop up in Aviation Week and Space Technology, of all places).

I am surprised that it has taken this long to get the footprint down, but as it's a political thing there are a variety of snags and obstacles to various key decisions to leave a particular place. Shutting down DoD facilities in Vieques and Puerto Rico happened at light speed, in comparison. (And while my memory may be hazy, once President Aquino (Philippines) said "You are invited to leave" it didn't take long to start folding the tents. The volcano (Pinatubo) merely hastened what had already begun).
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 18:26
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Bring them all home. As was mentioned, the CW ended a long time ago.
Perhaps the real reason is that Trump needs them to augment his militaristic 'defenCe' against domestic protestors in the so-called 'Land of the Free'??
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 18:28
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Based on one of the Ike biographies I read, it's been a contentious issue as far back as the lata 50's and early 60's, and when I was a JO, during the 80's, it was a very public harangue on who was or was not meeting their fiscal commitments to the Alliance. (It would crop up in Aviation Week and Space Technology, of all places).

I am surprised that it has taken this long to get the footprint down, but as it's a political thing there are a variety of snags and obstacles to various key decisions to leave a particular place. Shutting down DoD facilities in Vieques and Puerto Rico happened at light speed, in comparison. (And while my memory may be hazy, once President Aquino (Philippines) said "You are invited to leave" it didn't take long to start folding the tents. The volcano (Pinatubo) merely hastened what had already begun).
Layers of history, convention, apathy, likely some special interests have firmly anchored the status quo in place for far too long a time.

There isn’t a conventional threat to Europe that Euro militaries shouldn’t be able to manage.

I really need to renew my sub to AW&ST. War on the Rocks helps with the philosophy, but sometimes you need to read about the hardware as well.
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