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Red Arrows - worth the effort now?

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Red Arrows - worth the effort now?

Old 19th Jul 2019, 16:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The current Hawks are 40 years old now.
That would be like the 1978 Hawk replacing an early Spitfire by way of comparison rather than a Gnat.
Are they getting new Hawks?
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 17:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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The household cavalry argument is a good one, but as my mother would say, two wrongs donít make a right....,
I say again, I am a Reds fan, and would happily support them as a crowd funding exercise, but as part of the service, they are part of a smokescreen trying to prevent us from seeing things how they really are.
We are way beyond the scale of Air Force which can afford its own display team. The Reds perpetuate a myth.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 17:41
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Size of Air Force

Falcon900

Canada, France, Italy, Switzerland, Turkey, Australia, Jordan, Spain and probably others. All Air Forces of comparable or smaller size than the RAF which have their own display teams.

There was probably a better way to illustrate your point.

BV
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 17:54
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I think the Household Cavalry argument is a poor one. As has been pointed out both they and the foot guards have operational roles and rotate between public duties in London and Windsor, and ops wherever they are required. In their public duties role they are "on show" all year round and although I dont know the figures but I would guess that they are at least as cost effective in PR terms as the Red Arrows, if not more so.

Incidentally I was amused to see in the programme that Nige 321 mentioned that the incoming colonel of the Blue and Royals (I think it was) had spent most of his career in the non-ceremonial role, to the extent that he had to learn (or re-learn) how to ride a horse before taking over his post!
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 17:56
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Originally Posted by The Oberon View Post
I live in Scampton village, it can get a bit noisy at times but they were there before I moved in. I can't speak nationally but I do know that in the Lincoln area, to a man, there is a lot of pride in having RAFAT at Scampton and also a lot of bad feeling about them moving out. The same applies to the 617 Dambuster history attachment.
Although I now reside some 15 miles away from Lincoln, I visit regularly; I completed two tours at Scampton alongside the Reds and finished at Waddington.
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 18:07
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Hi
I have been a Reds fan for many years but I am afraid there time is up now???
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 18:15
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I think we would all agree that as the 5 or 6 th largest economy with a global reach, we should be able to afford these display teams and ceremonial troops. It does make one wonder where all the money is actually going; apart from foreign aid to countries with their own space programmes and to countries whose populations despise us.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 19:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by reds & greens View Post
Although I now reside some 15 miles away from Lincoln, I visit regularly; I completed two tours at Scampton alongside the Reds and finished at Waddington.
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?
Certainly not my experience in terms of popularity.
As I understand it, the Reds require a flying programme flexibility that an operational base could not provide, even at Cranwell it caused problems. I could be wrong here but I understand that the £6,000,000 it costs to run them comes largely from commercial sponsorship. I have been out for a long time so I don't know if the pilot and engineer shortage is that critical but in terms of support, surely that is done elsewhere where they are tagged on as a lodger unit?
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 19:53
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Oberon View Post
As I understand it, the Reds require a flying programme flexibility that an operational base could not provide, even at Cranwell it caused problems.
The Reds moving to Cranwell in 1996 was an unmitigated, bloody disaster for 3FTS Operations (!), what with the sterilisations on aircraft movements pre and post a Reds T/O and landing.

For us on 55(R) (Dominies) it wasn't too much of an issue since we were usually airborne well before the Reds' morning and afternoon take off slots (and we were flying 2 1/2 to 3 hr sorties).

However, when I moved sideways onto 45(R) (Jetstreams) it really hit home how much we were being dick danced around.

Probably the biggest victims, though, were CFS Bulldogs and EFTS Fireflies.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 22:07
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Seeing military jets actually flying was my main incentive to become an airforce pilot. Where I lived it was extremely rare to see them. Teams like the Red Arrows are an amazing encouragement for the youth (if not the crusty old buggers who had their turn).
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 22:35
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Yes. No question.

Everything else regarding cuts, be it RAF/FAA/AAC etc is a different subject. We as a country have been completely shafted by various governments over the years and that will continue forever.

TN.
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 09:59
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I would think that the air cadets organisation was the most effective recruiter for the RAF. it certainly worked on my son.
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 12:53
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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(if not the crusty old buggers who had their turn). I object Runaway Gun! Apparently I’m a Grumpy Old Git!! So get it right!
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 12:57
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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The Foot Guards and the Household Cavalry are also enormous draws for the tourist trade in London.........................
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 13:34
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Space Cadets, Meldrew? In my case, when I was a small boy, I used to watch the marsh warblers swooping in my mother's undercroft….and I remember thinking "Will I ever dare do the same?"....

'twas that - and of course living less than a mile from all the activity at RAF Merryfield had something to do with it!
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 14:28
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder whether the crunch will come in a few years if any more of the big summer airshows bite the dust, given we've already lost major shows like Waddington, Shoreham, and just recently Farnborough, particularly when it comes to any decision about RAFAT fleet replacement? Rumours are that some of the big seaside events are considering downscaling due to financial pressures.

Question is, will whoever who has to make the final decision be able to hold their nerve, given this wave of patriotic fervour we appear to be experiencing? Jez maybe, Boris definitely not...
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Old 13th Aug 2019, 15:53
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Saw the Red Arrows in Halifax, NS on Sunday at the start of their North American tour. Not the full display, presumably due to the location, but nice to see them nevertheless. Was bemused however by the "support" peeps trying to market RAF engineering (and some bird marketing Wales). Not sure of the purpose behind that. Anyway, I hope they manage to drum up some post Brexit business, and have a safe and successful tour. The cynic in me did wonder how much this tour is costing the UK tax payer, and whether they will get a good return for their "investment", particularly as funding for the front line continues to be limited.
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Old 13th Aug 2019, 17:03
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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The cost of the tour

I believe the Red Arrows tour of N America will cost the tax payer approximately £350M per week. Weirdly, this is the exact amount we can save by Brexiting. The NHS will just have to join the queue.

BV

Warning: these numbers may be a complete fabrication.
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Old 13th Aug 2019, 17:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot View Post
The current Hawks are 40 years old now.
That would be like the 1978 Hawk replacing an early Spitfire by way of comparison rather than a Gnat.
Are they getting new Hawks?
The basic design is 45 years old, but the actual aircraft they fly (mostly the same serial numbers since 1978) are not the same bits of structure that they were 40 years ago - I think the nose section is the only original bit (and possibly the smoke generators!), all the rest having been changed in various fatigue programmes.
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Old 13th Aug 2019, 18:38
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Avtur,

Thanks for the heads-up - I wasn't aware they were coming across the pond. I've alerted my aviation-oriented friends.
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