Red Arrows - worth the effort now?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: glasgow
Posts: 155
The household cavalry argument is a good one, but as my mother would say, two wrongs don’t make a right....,
I say again, I am a Reds fan, and would happily support them as a crowd funding exercise, but as part of the service, they are part of a smokescreen trying to prevent us from seeing things how they really are.
We are way beyond the scale of Air Force which can afford its own display team. The Reds perpetuate a myth.
I say again, I am a Reds fan, and would happily support them as a crowd funding exercise, but as part of the service, they are part of a smokescreen trying to prevent us from seeing things how they really are.
We are way beyond the scale of Air Force which can afford its own display team. The Reds perpetuate a myth.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 1,637
Size of Air Force
Falcon900
Canada, France, Italy, Switzerland, Turkey, Australia, Jordan, Spain and probably others. All Air Forces of comparable or smaller size than the RAF which have their own display teams.
There was probably a better way to illustrate your point.
BV
Canada, France, Italy, Switzerland, Turkey, Australia, Jordan, Spain and probably others. All Air Forces of comparable or smaller size than the RAF which have their own display teams.
There was probably a better way to illustrate your point.
BV
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 72
Posts: 3,763
I think the Household Cavalry argument is a poor one. As has been pointed out both they and the foot guards have operational roles and rotate between public duties in London and Windsor, and ops wherever they are required. In their public duties role they are "on show" all year round and although I dont know the figures but I would guess that they are at least as cost effective in PR terms as the Red Arrows, if not more so.
Incidentally I was amused to see in the programme that Nige 321 mentioned that the incoming colonel of the Blue and Royals (I think it was) had spent most of his career in the non-ceremonial role, to the extent that he had to learn (or re-learn) how to ride a horse before taking over his post!
Incidentally I was amused to see in the programme that Nige 321 mentioned that the incoming colonel of the Blue and Royals (I think it was) had spent most of his career in the non-ceremonial role, to the extent that he had to learn (or re-learn) how to ride a horse before taking over his post!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 134
Originally Posted by The Oberon
I live in Scampton village, it can get a bit noisy at times but they were there before I moved in. I can't speak nationally but I do know that in the Lincoln area, to a man, there is a lot of pride in having RAFAT at Scampton and also a lot of bad feeling about them moving out. The same applies to the 617 Dambuster history attachment.
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 661
I think we would all agree that as the 5 or 6 th largest economy with a global reach, we should be able to afford these display teams and ceremonial troops. It does make one wonder where all the money is actually going; apart from foreign aid to countries with their own space programmes and to countries whose populations despise us.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dead Dog Land
Age: 73
Posts: 424
Originally Posted by reds & greens
Although I now reside some 15 miles away from Lincoln, I visit regularly; I completed two tours at Scampton alongside the Reds and finished at Waddington.
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?
As I understand it, the Reds require a flying programme flexibility that an operational base could not provide, even at Cranwell it caused problems. I could be wrong here but I understand that the £6,000,000 it costs to run them comes largely from commercial sponsorship. I have been out for a long time so I don't know if the pilot and engineer shortage is that critical but in terms of support, surely that is done elsewhere where they are tagged on as a lodger unit?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sneaking up on the Runway and leaping out to grab it unawares
Age: 57
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by The Oberon
As I understand it, the Reds require a flying programme flexibility that an operational base could not provide, even at Cranwell it caused problems.
For us on 55(R) (Dominies) it wasn't too much of an issue since we were usually airborne well before the Reds' morning and afternoon take off slots (and we were flying 2 1/2 to 3 hr sorties).
However, when I moved sideways onto 45(R) (Jetstreams) it really hit home how much we were being dick danced around.
Probably the biggest victims, though, were CFS Bulldogs and EFTS Fireflies.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: these mist covered mountains are a home now for me.
Posts: 1,639
Seeing military jets actually flying was my main incentive to become an airforce pilot. Where I lived it was extremely rare to see them. Teams like the Red Arrows are an amazing encouragement for the youth (if not the crusty old buggers who had their turn).
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 271
Yes. No question.
Everything else regarding cuts, be it RAF/FAA/AAC etc is a different subject. We as a country have been completely shafted by various governments over the years and that will continue forever.
TN.
Everything else regarding cuts, be it RAF/FAA/AAC etc is a different subject. We as a country have been completely shafted by various governments over the years and that will continue forever.
TN.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,504
Space Cadets, Meldrew? In my case, when I was a small boy, I used to watch the marsh warblers swooping in my mother's undercroft….and I remember thinking "Will I ever dare do the same?"....
'twas that - and of course living less than a mile from all the activity at RAF Merryfield had something to do with it!
'twas that - and of course living less than a mile from all the activity at RAF Merryfield had something to do with it!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 763
I wonder whether the crunch will come in a few years if any more of the big summer airshows bite the dust, given we've already lost major shows like Waddington, Shoreham, and just recently Farnborough, particularly when it comes to any decision about RAFAT fleet replacement? Rumours are that some of the big seaside events are considering downscaling due to financial pressures.
Question is, will whoever who has to make the final decision be able to hold their nerve, given this wave of patriotic fervour we appear to be experiencing? Jez maybe, Boris definitely not...
Question is, will whoever who has to make the final decision be able to hold their nerve, given this wave of patriotic fervour we appear to be experiencing? Jez maybe, Boris definitely not...
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Canada
Posts: 341
Saw the Red Arrows in Halifax, NS on Sunday at the start of their North American tour. Not the full display, presumably due to the location, but nice to see them nevertheless. Was bemused however by the "support" peeps trying to market RAF engineering (and some bird marketing Wales). Not sure of the purpose behind that. Anyway, I hope they manage to drum up some post Brexit business, and have a safe and successful tour. The cynic in me did wonder how much this tour is costing the UK tax payer, and whether they will get a good return for their "investment", particularly as funding for the front line continues to be limited.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 1,637
The cost of the tour
I believe the Red Arrows tour of N America will cost the tax payer approximately £350M per week. Weirdly, this is the exact amount we can save by Brexiting. The NHS will just have to join the queue.
BV
Warning: these numbers may be a complete fabrication.
BV
Warning: these numbers may be a complete fabrication.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
The current Hawks are 40 years old now.
That would be like the 1978 Hawk replacing an early Spitfire by way of comparison rather than a Gnat.
Are they getting new Hawks?
That would be like the 1978 Hawk replacing an early Spitfire by way of comparison rather than a Gnat.
Are they getting new Hawks?
