Pension 2020
Thread Starter
Pension 2020
My first post so please be gentle.
Its a mess with pensions from what I read (judges and firemen, and the possible ramifications on ours) but notice it’s too quiet, or deafeningly silent on the ‘contributory’ pension we have been told is coming.
I was auto enrolled onto 2015 because of my age, and now it may be that that move was illegal. That will pan out, slowly I guess.
Has anyone heard of the work on Pension 2020? I’ll be 52 and I’m interested to see if there is any gen at all. It could just be that my Unit has not had a team visit yet.
Its a mess with pensions from what I read (judges and firemen, and the possible ramifications on ours) but notice it’s too quiet, or deafeningly silent on the ‘contributory’ pension we have been told is coming.
I was auto enrolled onto 2015 because of my age, and now it may be that that move was illegal. That will pan out, slowly I guess.
Has anyone heard of the work on Pension 2020? I’ll be 52 and I’m interested to see if there is any gen at all. It could just be that my Unit has not had a team visit yet.
Never heard of AFPS 2020 or any such contributory scheme. If they wanted it for 2020 then they would have started work on it in 2017 at the very latest and consultation would have started by now.
Nice rumour - but I suspect it is total bunkum!
As for the other matter, I agree Red Line Entry - that will take a very long time. I also don’t want any changes personally as I am very happy with AFPS15 on my own career profile. So “horses for courses” as they say!
Nice rumour - but I suspect it is total bunkum!
As for the other matter, I agree Red Line Entry - that will take a very long time. I also don’t want any changes personally as I am very happy with AFPS15 on my own career profile. So “horses for courses” as they say!
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I suspect that the fallout of the McCloud case (Firemen & Judges) will take far longer for the Govt to work out their smoke & mirrors. It took 4 months to work out, 6 months to implement, last years pay rise. As McCloud hasn't yet finalised into reality, I think it'll be 2022/3 before a new AFPS system.
Remember this all has to be installed into JPA - an OTS system, that MOD buggered about with so much that it forgot what a Bank Holiday was!!!!!!
Remember this all has to be installed into JPA - an OTS system, that MOD buggered about with so much that it forgot what a Bank Holiday was!!!!!!
AFPS
What happened to no pension changes for 25 years after AFPS 15?
Pension changes are never for a better deal. If true, people will leave. To be fair, just rumours of pension changes might make people leave.
BV
Pension changes are never for a better deal. If true, people will leave. To be fair, just rumours of pension changes might make people leave.
BV
Thread Starter
Could really do with an FPS advisor stepping in to clarify this. It’s definitely fact about a new scheme, a full-on contributory scheme is coming, but agree with others that it will move right, but by how far?
Could it be part of the new joiner package, basic paint without X factor until you deploy? There is a team at Wycombe investigating all of this, but they’re more secretive than Secret Squirrel!
Could it be part of the new joiner package, basic paint without X factor until you deploy? There is a team at Wycombe investigating all of this, but they’re more secretive than Secret Squirrel!
I think contributory pensions might have been discussed a while back as part of broader MOD finance issues, along with abolition of increments. Not heard anything since and if I were running things I would be very nervous about any such move given the already tight - and in some cases parlous - manning situation. Plus pay is already abated to take pensions into account. Things aren’t going that well that people will be willing to lose even more money on top of already reduced pensions and years of pay restraint.
The easy way round this is just to put everyone on the same scheme. I suspect the numbers of personnel remaining on grandfather rights are relatively small and at the tail end of careers making the impact if they walked a little more baresble. It would be significantly easier than coming up with yet another new scheme - the third in 15 years.
The easy way round this is just to put everyone on the same scheme. I suspect the numbers of personnel remaining on grandfather rights are relatively small and at the tail end of careers making the impact if they walked a little more baresble. It would be significantly easier than coming up with yet another new scheme - the third in 15 years.
Thread Starter
MM, I’m a way off from taking my EDP, just trying to find out what’s out there. From the silence I think it’s a very good bet it will have shifted right, and on a selfish head on... whatever it is, it won’t affect me.
it will be interesting if a contributory scheme will enable people to claim their tax back.
For me, it’s 12 months before I will join the FPS.
it will be interesting if a contributory scheme will enable people to claim their tax back.
For me, it’s 12 months before I will join the FPS.
Could really do with an FPS advisor stepping in to clarify this. It’s definitely fact about a new scheme, a full-on contributory scheme is coming, but agree with others that it will move right, but by how far?
Could it be part of the new joiner package, basic paint without X factor until you deploy? There is a team at Wycombe investigating all of this, but they’re more secretive than Secret Squirrel!
Could it be part of the new joiner package, basic paint without X factor until you deploy? There is a team at Wycombe investigating all of this, but they’re more secretive than Secret Squirrel!
This is what NJO was going to be all about:
Why are we developing a New Joiner Offer?
The current offer is failing to attract sufficient numbers of the people defence needs and has remained broadly similar for many years. Research now shows that the next generation has different expectations of what they want from a career, with a greater focus on variety, choice and flexibility of employment. We need a new offer that has the flexibility to respond to future societal changes or the armed forces offer will become increasingly out of step with the employment expectations of our recruits.
At the same time the cost of the current offer continues to rise. The gradual reduction of the armed forces has kept personnel costs stable, but further reductions to the size of the services are not an option. If we do nothing the next 10 years will see defence facing a significant deficit in personnel costs. Defence must live within its means and the New Joiner Offer must achieve savings, but it must also attract and retain the people we need.
When will it be implemented?
The aim is for the New Joiner Offer to be available from 2020.
Who will it apply to?
The New Joiner Offer is intended for new entrants who join the services from 2020.
The current offer is failing to attract sufficient numbers of the people defence needs and has remained broadly similar for many years. Research now shows that the next generation has different expectations of what they want from a career, with a greater focus on variety, choice and flexibility of employment. We need a new offer that has the flexibility to respond to future societal changes or the armed forces offer will become increasingly out of step with the employment expectations of our recruits.
At the same time the cost of the current offer continues to rise. The gradual reduction of the armed forces has kept personnel costs stable, but further reductions to the size of the services are not an option. If we do nothing the next 10 years will see defence facing a significant deficit in personnel costs. Defence must live within its means and the New Joiner Offer must achieve savings, but it must also attract and retain the people we need.
When will it be implemented?
The aim is for the New Joiner Offer to be available from 2020.
Who will it apply to?
The New Joiner Offer is intended for new entrants who join the services from 2020.
Bob Viking wrote:
That was a strong push factor and as such it confirmed my intention to pull the black and yellow back in 2003! After years of retired pay stability, the mere mention of fiddling with pension rates made me lose any confidence in the future of the system....
To be fair, just rumours of pension changes might make people leave.
Quote:
Could really do with an FPS advisor stepping in to clarify this. It’s definitely fact about a new scheme, a full-on contributory scheme is coming, but agree with others that it will move right, but by how far?
Could it be part of the new joiner package, basic paint without X factor until you deploy? There is a team at Wycombe investigating all of this, but they’re more secretive than Secret Squirrel!
FPS:
There is no news on the pensions front at them moment. The ruling on the Firefighters and Judges has everybody considering the implications for their schemes. As soon there is something to share, we will be back.
Could really do with an FPS advisor stepping in to clarify this. It’s definitely fact about a new scheme, a full-on contributory scheme is coming, but agree with others that it will move right, but by how far?
Could it be part of the new joiner package, basic paint without X factor until you deploy? There is a team at Wycombe investigating all of this, but they’re more secretive than Secret Squirrel!
FPS:
There is no news on the pensions front at them moment. The ruling on the Firefighters and Judges has everybody considering the implications for their schemes. As soon there is something to share, we will be back.
I left with an Immediate Pension in 2015 on AFPS 75 terms. Here's hoping that no changes are made to us 'retired' folk currently receiving the pension we left with!
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They need a separate, higher pay scale with for pilots, as the medics and legal departments have. The disparity in pay and conditions is getting too big now to risk staying in.
Vinrouge
You are absolutely spot on. It is high time the RAF accepted that pilots, as a speciality, deserve to be suitably remunerated.
On a different thread I was saying how the package is actually pretty good. I stand by this, but not for everyone. I have been very fortunate and my personal package (oo er) has been very good up until now.
I joined in ‘99. I was fortunate enough to make Flt Lt one year after IOT ( the one advantage of a 4 year degree) and got flying pay shortly after that. I was also on AFPS 75 (now 75/15). I am PAS and I have also been lucky enough to enjoy a few other good deals along the way.
I guess I joined back when we valued pilots. Nowadays it feels like the whole ‘Officer first, pilot second’ mantra has been taken to extremes.
A FJ pilot currently spends longer in training than a Doctor (it took me over 5 years from starting IOT to being CR on the Jaguar so things haven’t changed that much). There are very specific skills expected of a pilot and it is a long old road. And a bloody expensive one.
There are those who will think I am just lodged up my own backside and with an overblown sense of my own self importance. It’s probably hard to argue but then consider what happens when all of us prima donnas leave. Who will do the flying then? OC Catering? OC PMS? The Ops O? Because right now they all earn the same as a first tourist Typhoon pilot.
So who should we worry about upsetting the most? The jealous few who think the pilots are all prima donnas or the expensively trained assets who operate our war machines?
Please note I am a FJ guy and will only ever speak for the FJ fraternity. Individuals from other fleets can speak for themselves.
BV
On a different thread I was saying how the package is actually pretty good. I stand by this, but not for everyone. I have been very fortunate and my personal package (oo er) has been very good up until now.
I joined in ‘99. I was fortunate enough to make Flt Lt one year after IOT ( the one advantage of a 4 year degree) and got flying pay shortly after that. I was also on AFPS 75 (now 75/15). I am PAS and I have also been lucky enough to enjoy a few other good deals along the way.
I guess I joined back when we valued pilots. Nowadays it feels like the whole ‘Officer first, pilot second’ mantra has been taken to extremes.
A FJ pilot currently spends longer in training than a Doctor (it took me over 5 years from starting IOT to being CR on the Jaguar so things haven’t changed that much). There are very specific skills expected of a pilot and it is a long old road. And a bloody expensive one.
There are those who will think I am just lodged up my own backside and with an overblown sense of my own self importance. It’s probably hard to argue but then consider what happens when all of us prima donnas leave. Who will do the flying then? OC Catering? OC PMS? The Ops O? Because right now they all earn the same as a first tourist Typhoon pilot.
So who should we worry about upsetting the most? The jealous few who think the pilots are all prima donnas or the expensively trained assets who operate our war machines?
Please note I am a FJ guy and will only ever speak for the FJ fraternity. Individuals from other fleets can speak for themselves.
BV
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BV,
If I may? From an RAF perspective, the new system actually has a lot of JO pilots by the short and curly's. 6-7 yrs until OCU finished which means a 6 yr ROS... which is about the time that flying pay kicks in... For newbies, it might work well as they dont have the knowledge or experience of all the ToS changes. It will just be what they join up with.
If I may? From an RAF perspective, the new system actually has a lot of JO pilots by the short and curly's. 6-7 yrs until OCU finished which means a 6 yr ROS... which is about the time that flying pay kicks in... For newbies, it might work well as they dont have the knowledge or experience of all the ToS changes. It will just be what they join up with.
The likelihood of specialist pay spines akin to MODOs for pilots has two hopes: and Bob is dead. There is no shortage of people wanting to be pilots, and I imagine if the self-licking lollipop that is the training system actually worked (which is rife with pilots), you’d actually have more people than you could cope with.
If you don’t like being an Officer, I’m sure we can get you all down to SACs.
If you don’t like being an Officer, I’m sure we can get you all down to SACs.
The likelihood of specialist pay spines akin to MODOs for pilots has two hopes: and Bob is dead. There is no shortage of people wanting to be pilots, and I imagine if the self-licking lollipop that is the training system actually worked (which is rife with pilots), you’d actually have more people than you could cope with.
If you don’t like being an Officer, I’m sure we can get you all down to SACs.
If you don’t like being an Officer, I’m sure we can get you all down to SACs.
I’m not in anyway dismissing the pilot - admirer VFM question, but you can see it’s not a straight forward pitch to those holding the purse strings.
A few little gems to throw in if I may?
Sgt Pilots are more expensive than Fg Off Pilots and Flt Sgt/MAcr Pilots are more expensive than Flt Lt Pilots. That is if we use the Pay Supplement 4 and the RRP(F) rates which AAC NCO Pilots are on. So there is absolutely no advantage there apart from lowering the number in the Officers’ Mess.
I think the biggest danger in becoming a ‘specialist branch’ is that it could undo the progression up the ranks to CAS - do we really want the Royal Air Force completely run by those that only know how to support Air Power and flying?
The only true way of doing this is a bit like in the commercial sector - where you have a pay ladder, you are placed on the pay ladder according to your skill and profession - and discussing what salary you are on is a dismissible offence. Otherwise, there will be an absolute melee of “I’m better than them, and that’s not fair”. Also, we have to somehow do this tri-Service too. Finally, on RRP(F) then the Treasury will be loathed to move that into main pay as it then becomes pensionable (££,£££,£££,£££s).
Sgt Pilots are more expensive than Fg Off Pilots and Flt Sgt/MAcr Pilots are more expensive than Flt Lt Pilots. That is if we use the Pay Supplement 4 and the RRP(F) rates which AAC NCO Pilots are on. So there is absolutely no advantage there apart from lowering the number in the Officers’ Mess.
I think the biggest danger in becoming a ‘specialist branch’ is that it could undo the progression up the ranks to CAS - do we really want the Royal Air Force completely run by those that only know how to support Air Power and flying?
The only true way of doing this is a bit like in the commercial sector - where you have a pay ladder, you are placed on the pay ladder according to your skill and profession - and discussing what salary you are on is a dismissible offence. Otherwise, there will be an absolute melee of “I’m better than them, and that’s not fair”. Also, we have to somehow do this tri-Service too. Finally, on RRP(F) then the Treasury will be loathed to move that into main pay as it then becomes pensionable (££,£££,£££,£££s).
Worth remembering that ground branch officers have a flt lt to sqn ldr promotion rate 3 times or more greater than that of aircrew. Typically they achieve that promotion before today's time-delayed pilot has finished his first OCU return of service. Meanwhile the flt lt pilot is marking time at the top of their pay band; again.
Delays to flying pay / RRP awards adds additional disincentives and, for those that actually stay for PAS, results in a lower entry point onto that spine. This further reduces the package, total income and CARE pension provision until the forever sleep.. Meanwhile they have served the same number of years as others more fortunate.
I think it is a mess. The outflow vs inflow ratio suggests that it is a crisis.
Delays to flying pay / RRP awards adds additional disincentives and, for those that actually stay for PAS, results in a lower entry point onto that spine. This further reduces the package, total income and CARE pension provision until the forever sleep.. Meanwhile they have served the same number of years as others more fortunate.
I think it is a mess. The outflow vs inflow ratio suggests that it is a crisis.