Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

Old 9th Apr 2019, 08:53
  #21 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,468
Received 2,594 Likes on 1,098 Posts
Ah well, at the very least it has generated some interesting discussions.

I suffered minor airframe ricochet damage in both Harrier and Jaguar, both only noticed after landing.
One of our Jags had a nice crease on the lower port wing from a round hitting it, we also had one took a round through the intake and a second one creased the canopy.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 09:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,360
Received 455 Likes on 120 Posts
Nutty

Can you definitely say that those Jags were in too close when they fired?

I hope you see my point. To a casual observer a ricochet might ‘obviously’ be caused by being too low/close but the reality is often different. Despite what you may think about FJ pilots, they do not routinely break the rules for fun. Those antics are, mostly, reserved for the bar.

BV
Bob Viking is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 09:17
  #23 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,468
Received 2,594 Likes on 1,098 Posts
True, but I wasn't saying they had, I was just telling the person I quoted of the damage we had on ours. though to have a round hit the intake from behind, the canopy and also the wing, the Jag would have to be out running them, and it struggled to get airborne let alone out run a round.

All the damage was either aft or directly above the gun muzzle and the intake ones were through the lower intake but not the upper, so the round passed out through the open intake.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 09:57
  #24 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 80
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Nutty, not sure what you are driving at. A Jaguar was no slouch, we once did a bombing trial with the Jag at 525kts.

A cannon round may be faster with a muzzle velocity of 2,600fps compared with the delivery aircraft at around 900fps, but the round will slow and loose energy on impact and deflection. It would also have a longer flight path on ricochet.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 19:20
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 26 Likes on 14 Posts
I recall a Jaguar of ** Sqn being hit by a ricochet at Deci around 83-84. The round had penetrated the stbd wing underside adjacent to where the front of the outer pylon was located - the round was still in situ! Sad thing was that it was only discovered by the see-off crew during the next pilot's walkround.

superplum is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:06
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

The Netherlands’ Defense Safety Inspection Agency (Inspectie Veiligheid Defensie) is investigating an incident during a January military exercise in which a Dutch Air Force F-16 was damaged by live fire from a 20-millimeter cannon—its own 20-millimeter cannon. At least one round fired from the aircraft’s M61A1 Vulcan Gatling gun struck the aircraft as it fired at targets on the Dutch military’s Vliehors range on the island of Vlieland, according to a report from the Netherlands’ NOS news service.Two F-16s were conducting firing exercises on January 21. It appears that the damaged aircraft actually caught up with the 20mm rounds it fired as it pulled out of its firing run. At least one of them struck the side of the F-16’s fuselage, and parts of a round were ingested by the aircraft’s engine. The F-16’s pilot managed to land the aircraft safely at Leeuwarden Air Base.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...e-from-itself/
PastTense is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:10
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 58
Posts: 1,903
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
I’ll defer to more knowledgeable persons but it smells like BS
atakacs is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 78
Posts: 50
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you leave your pull out a little late (ie too close to the target) and/or don't pull up positively enough, you can fly through the area of possible ricochets and catch your own bullets. It happened to a Jaguar on a sister squadron in around 1982/3 if memory serves.
Mach2 is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:30
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: florida
Age: 81
Posts: 1,609
Received 52 Likes on 15 Posts
Salute!

I go with the ricochet theory.

If you ever see the pattern when you have tracers, it is surprising how high some of those puppies go. And then you run into one doing 400 or 500 knots. Not a big problem with HEI, as they do not richochet 99.9 % of the time.

It's also dependent upon dive angle and such. I sure wouldn't and didn't strafe down in the weeds versus any target that might have a secondary. We used 20 or 30 degree dive and fired way out there.

Gums sends...




ricochets
gums is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:34
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Glesga, Scotland
Age: 51
Posts: 230
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A Grumman F11 Tiger shot itself down 1956 and am sure there was a missile issue with a F14 many moons ago.
fallmonk is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 21:18
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Nutloose started a thread on this subject a day or two ago.

Who said pilots were bright?
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2019, 23:40
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Saw it happen to a course mate in the pattern ahead of me at Pembrey in 1986. Punctured his wing fuel tank and he departed the range and made it back to Chivenor without further incident. He had not infringed any min ranges or low heights.

RNAW
Reader not a writer is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2019, 12:02
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Boulevard of Broken Dreams
Age: 52
Posts: 195
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wasn''t there a dodgy TV series about 15 years ago about a fictitious Tornado F3 squadron - they were using the ranges and one caught a ricochet in the front bang seat that went off after landing?
ISTR some really dodgy characters and a mostly carp story line...
NickB is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2019, 13:01
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near an airplane
Posts: 2,764
Received 46 Likes on 37 Posts
See here: https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...-ricochet.html
Jhieminga is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2019, 14:28
  #35 (permalink)  

Dog Tired
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I shot myself down on Rashid range (Sharah) in a Hunter. Ricochet 30mm. Went down the engine and stripped it clean. Landed dead-stick and should have got a medal but didn't. The Mil Mod will confirm; he was the lead until I shot HIM down with my nape tank drop a few minutes before.
fantom is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2019, 15:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dark Side of West Wales
Age: 85
Posts: 161
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
fantom reminds me of a trial carried out in the '50's regarding putting Russian amour out of action with Hunters and 30mm Aden cannon. Some bright spark in the RAF Armaments Branch presumably at Boscombe Down got the idea that whilst 30mm would not penetrate Russian armour it was capable of making a nasty mess of tank tracks. Fortunately the trial was carried out on the ground at Foulness and was quite successful, except for the ricochets and shrapnel from the tracks which reached a considerable height. Thus common sense prevailed and they did not try it with a real flying hunter. The armament bods went off to look for something else instead and eventually settled on SNEB.
DODGYOLDFART is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2019, 15:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dorset
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
F14

Originally Posted by fallmonk
A Grumman F11 Tiger shot itself down 1956 and am sure there was a missile issue with a F14 many moons ago.
There was a warning in the F14 NATOPS not to fire the gun when above M1.4 (I think that was the speed) when in straight and level flight as there was a danger of catching up with the bullets - the gun was angled up to help in dog fights.
Lone Kestrel is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2019, 19:00
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 120
Received 19 Likes on 9 Posts
Is the pilot allowed to claim this as a kill and paint a little kill symbol on his cockpit?
DroneDog is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 00:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
Posts: 1,185
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
I recall while working at Pembrey Sands in the early 1980s that a TWU Hawk T1 took a ricochet and they found the spent round on the cockpit floor. Can't remember if it was from Chivenor or Brawdy.
Out Of Trim is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 07:46
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sussex
Posts: 141
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
And that pilot (JB) lives in Horsham too!
farefield is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.