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Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

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Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

Old 9th Apr 2019, 08:53
  #21 (permalink)  
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Ah well, at the very least it has generated some interesting discussions.

I suffered minor airframe ricochet damage in both Harrier and Jaguar, both only noticed after landing.
One of our Jags had a nice crease on the lower port wing from a round hitting it, we also had one took a round through the intake and a second one creased the canopy.
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 09:06
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Nutty

Can you definitely say that those Jags were in too close when they fired?

I hope you see my point. To a casual observer a ricochet might ‘obviously’ be caused by being too low/close but the reality is often different. Despite what you may think about FJ pilots, they do not routinely break the rules for fun. Those antics are, mostly, reserved for the bar.

BV
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 09:17
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True, but I wasn't saying they had, I was just telling the person I quoted of the damage we had on ours. though to have a round hit the intake from behind, the canopy and also the wing, the Jag would have to be out running them, and it struggled to get airborne let alone out run a round.

All the damage was either aft or directly above the gun muzzle and the intake ones were through the lower intake but not the upper, so the round passed out through the open intake.
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 09:57
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Nutty, not sure what you are driving at. A Jaguar was no slouch, we once did a bombing trial with the Jag at 525kts.

A cannon round may be faster with a muzzle velocity of 2,600fps compared with the delivery aircraft at around 900fps, but the round will slow and loose energy on impact and deflection. It would also have a longer flight path on ricochet.
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 19:20
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I recall a Jaguar of ** Sqn being hit by a ricochet at Deci around 83-84. The round had penetrated the stbd wing underside adjacent to where the front of the outer pylon was located - the round was still in situ! Sad thing was that it was only discovered by the see-off crew during the next pilot's walkround.

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Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:06
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Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

The Netherlands’ Defense Safety Inspection Agency (Inspectie Veiligheid Defensie) is investigating an incident during a January military exercise in which a Dutch Air Force F-16 was damaged by live fire from a 20-millimeter cannon—its own 20-millimeter cannon. At least one round fired from the aircraft’s M61A1 Vulcan Gatling gun struck the aircraft as it fired at targets on the Dutch military’s Vliehors range on the island of Vlieland, according to a report from the Netherlands’ NOS news service.Two F-16s were conducting firing exercises on January 21. It appears that the damaged aircraft actually caught up with the 20mm rounds it fired as it pulled out of its firing run. At least one of them struck the side of the F-16’s fuselage, and parts of a round were ingested by the aircraft’s engine. The F-16’s pilot managed to land the aircraft safely at Leeuwarden Air Base.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...e-from-itself/
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:10
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I’ll defer to more knowledgeable persons but it smells like BS
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:16
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If you leave your pull out a little late (ie too close to the target) and/or don't pull up positively enough, you can fly through the area of possible ricochets and catch your own bullets. It happened to a Jaguar on a sister squadron in around 1982/3 if memory serves.
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:30
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Salute!

I go with the ricochet theory.

If you ever see the pattern when you have tracers, it is surprising how high some of those puppies go. And then you run into one doing 400 or 500 knots. Not a big problem with HEI, as they do not richochet 99.9 % of the time.

It's also dependent upon dive angle and such. I sure wouldn't and didn't strafe down in the weeds versus any target that might have a secondary. We used 20 or 30 degree dive and fired way out there.

Gums sends...




ricochets
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 20:34
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A Grumman F11 Tiger shot itself down 1956 and am sure there was a missile issue with a F14 many moons ago.
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 21:18
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Nutloose started a thread on this subject a day or two ago.

Who said pilots were bright?
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Old 9th Apr 2019, 23:40
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Saw it happen to a course mate in the pattern ahead of me at Pembrey in 1986. Punctured his wing fuel tank and he departed the range and made it back to Chivenor without further incident. He had not infringed any min ranges or low heights.

RNAW
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 12:02
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Wasn''t there a dodgy TV series about 15 years ago about a fictitious Tornado F3 squadron - they were using the ranges and one caught a ricochet in the front bang seat that went off after landing?
ISTR some really dodgy characters and a mostly carp story line...
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 13:01
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See here: https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...-ricochet.html
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 14:28
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I shot myself down on Rashid range (Sharah) in a Hunter. Ricochet 30mm. Went down the engine and stripped it clean. Landed dead-stick and should have got a medal but didn't. The Mil Mod will confirm; he was the lead until I shot HIM down with my nape tank drop a few minutes before.
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 15:13
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fantom reminds me of a trial carried out in the '50's regarding putting Russian amour out of action with Hunters and 30mm Aden cannon. Some bright spark in the RAF Armaments Branch presumably at Boscombe Down got the idea that whilst 30mm would not penetrate Russian armour it was capable of making a nasty mess of tank tracks. Fortunately the trial was carried out on the ground at Foulness and was quite successful, except for the ricochets and shrapnel from the tracks which reached a considerable height. Thus common sense prevailed and they did not try it with a real flying hunter. The armament bods went off to look for something else instead and eventually settled on SNEB.
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 15:51
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F14

Originally Posted by fallmonk View Post
A Grumman F11 Tiger shot itself down 1956 and am sure there was a missile issue with a F14 many moons ago.
There was a warning in the F14 NATOPS not to fire the gun when above M1.4 (I think that was the speed) when in straight and level flight as there was a danger of catching up with the bullets - the gun was angled up to help in dog fights.
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 19:00
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Is the pilot allowed to claim this as a kill and paint a little kill symbol on his cockpit?
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 00:56
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I recall while working at Pembrey Sands in the early 1980s that a TWU Hawk T1 took a ricochet and they found the spent round on the cockpit floor. Can't remember if it was from Chivenor or Brawdy.
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 07:46
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And that pilot (JB) lives in Horsham too!
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