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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

Old 9th Mar 2019, 12:18
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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This very nearly ended in tragedy!
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 12:44
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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And he was permitted to carry out public displays after that!?
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 13:38
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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I cannot claim any particular expertise, and certainly not in aerobatics in high-performance jet aeroplanes, but I do have some experience of "congnitive impairment".
Most of the posts I have read on here from obviously very experienced fast jet pilots (current or former) seem to be "locked into" discussion of impairment due to various stages of G-LOC. But when AH commenced his loop he did so from level flight, at 1G. This is reported to have been already far too low and too slow.
The AAIB report then states that there were random throttle movements, instead of immediate application of full throttle.
Then, arriving at the top of a loop (which had become 'bent') an opportunity to escape from being too low and too slow was missed. On the way down it must have been obvious to the pilot that he was going to crash, yet he didn't turn away from the road, nor attempt to eject and save himself.
It seems to me, therefore, that there was a degree of impairment from the begining and throughout the manoeuvre, which was NOT G induced.
One condition that can cause this is a Transient Ischemic Attack (TIA) - sometimes called a 'mini-stroke'. When this happens, an individual can appear normal, and may make seemingly deliberate actions, even converse, but be unable to realise what is going on around them.
A TIA can happen to anyone, at any time, and can leave no detectable physical trace. Sometimes it can happen again, sometimes it can be followed by a full stroke or even death, and sometimes by nothing at all.
That AH survived at all is nothing short of miraculous, but the whole desperately sad and tragic event resulting in the loss of so many lives may not be anyone's "fault".
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 16:01
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo Alpha One View Post
I cannot claim any particular expertise, and certainly not in aerobatics in high-performance jet aeroplanes, but I do have some experience of "congnitive impairment".
Most of the posts I have read on here from obviously very experienced fast jet pilots (current or former) seem to be "locked into" discussion of impairment due to various stages of G-LOC. But when AH commenced his loop he did so from level flight, at 1G. This is reported to have been already far too low and too slow.
The AAIB report then states that there were random throttle movements, instead of immediate application of full throttle.
Then, arriving at the top of a loop (which had become 'bent') an opportunity to escape from being too low and too slow was missed. On the way down it must have been obvious to the pilot that he was going to crash, yet he didn't turn away from the road, nor attempt to eject and save himself.
It seems to me, therefore, that there was a degree of impairment from the begining and throughout the manoeuvre, which was NOT G induced.
One condition that can cause this is a Transient Ischemic Attack (TIA) - sometimes called a 'mini-stroke'. When this happens, an individual can appear normal, and may make seemingly deliberate actions, even converse, but be unable to realise what is going on around them.
A TIA can happen to anyone, at any time, and can leave no detectable physical trace. Sometimes it can happen again, sometimes it can be followed by a full stroke or even death, and sometimes by nothing at all.
That AH survived at all is nothing short of miraculous, but the whole desperately sad and tragic event resulting in the loss of so many lives may not be anyone's "fault".
This is all very true and the jury probably returned the correct verdict in response to the evidence as they heard it. However, unlike in Scotland where a third verdict of 'Not Proven' is available, the English verdict of 'Not Guilty' has the broader meaning of either the accused didn't do it or the case against him/her was not totally convincing. I'm a pilot so legal beagles please tell me if I'm talking scribble.
Also the loop was started too low, too slow and outside the display area, before any 'g' was pulled or cognitive impairment induced; even an almost perfect loop could have ended in disaster.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 16:20
  #165 (permalink)  
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Also the loop was started too low, too slow and outside the display area, before any 'g' was pulled or cognitive impairment induced; even an almost perfect loop could have ended in disaster.
Exactly what BA1 was postulating, non-G related Cognitive Impairment.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 16:34
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Air Snoop View Post
This is all very true and the jury probably returned the correct verdict in response to the evidence as they heard it. However, unlike in Scotland where a third verdict of 'Not Proven' is available, the English verdict of 'Not Guilty' has the broader meaning of either the accused didn't do it or the case against him/her was not totally convincing. I'm a pilot so legal beagles please tell me if I'm talking scribble.
Also the loop was started too low, too slow and outside the display area, before any 'g' was pulled or cognitive impairment induced; even an almost perfect loop could have ended in disaster.
Indeed, as I understand it, but in England the court can only consider the charge the accused is indicted with. "Not Guilty" doesn't mean "innocent", it means the prosecution has failed to prove that specific charge. Usually, the CPS will bring the charge they are most confident they can prove. If they fail to do so, because there is a reasonable doubt, the accused is Not Gulity.
This incident was a tragedy for everyone involved, but I doubt AH intended to crash that day. It's natural for victims to want to blame someone [same with fatal illnesses] and I do wonder what sort of posts we would be reading if AH had not miraculously survived [or indeed if he had ejected and survived - IF he ever was inside the seat's envelope].
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 16:34
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Leaving aside the technical issues I think a bit of fear of the media has a role in this. A dreadful and spectacular accident causes several peoples death in the most appalling manner . even so in English law manslaughter cases can be very hard to prove and i think that is the heart of the matter. The reasonable doubt which smart lawyers can introduce into many scenarios puts the conviction at risk but if he had been charged with a lesser offence then the mail and Express and the rest of the gutter press would be baying for the blood of the CPS for being weak and selling out bereaved families

While Uk has a decent legal system it still has many flaws (how much money you have is still too important) as we often see when a large company causes the death of employees or passengers or member of the general public no one ends up getting charged but if you operate fairground machinery-or ina recent case a bouncy castle heaven help you.



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Old 9th Mar 2019, 17:16
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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An innocent question, gentlemen.

So if the pilot experienced TIA or CI that rather brings into question his Medical category. Or has that been covered already?

Did the ‘stress/excitement’ of displaying the Hunter actually contribute to the sad events that followed?
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 17:26
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo Alpha One View Post
Then, arriving at the top of a loop (which had become 'bent')
The loop was always intended to be "bent" as part of the display routine. That's simply a reference to exiting the loop on a different heading from that on entry.

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Old 9th Mar 2019, 17:38
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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The pilot in this instance has been found not guilty in a court of law of the charges laid against him. I have read the AAIB report in some detail but clearly only the press coverage of the court proceedings. Despite the pilots apparent lack of recall of the events that took place, it seems that his defence counsel has made a very convincing case for cognitive impairment which whilst unproven in an absolute sense was nonetheless suitably convincing for the jury. Quite at what point this impairment took place or may have taken place will remain unknown yet it would seem that mistakes were made by the pilot at an early stage of the display which may have led to a point at which such impairment may have limited the pilots ability to rectify the situation into which he had placed himself and his aircraft.

Surely the recognition of this 'condition' may mean that the CAA will be forced to make even further stringent moves against display flying particuarly involving high speed fast jet aircraft whether or not they fall into the vintage category. A fear that future incidents will be blamed upon cognitive impairment as a standard defence against prosecution may prove unacceptable to the regulatory authorities. Much as I admire the abilities of pilots which are immeasurably greater than my own, I have always harboured the belief that some display flying utilises aircraft carrying out manoeuvres for which they were not designed and as such little room for error; I fear their days may be even more numberered than they already were.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 18:00
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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It will be interesting to see what findings come out of the Inquests.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 18:27
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
An innocent question, gentlemen.

So if the pilot experienced TIA or CI that rather brings into question his Medical category. Or has that been covered already?

Did the ‘stress/excitement’ of displaying the Hunter actually contribute to the sad events that followed?
From my understanding, and the experience of TIA the answer is "no". A TIA can hit anyone at any time. So can a stroke for that matter - lad I was at school with suffered a massive and disabling one at 15!
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 18:55
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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This 'cognitive impairment' would appear to be a massive can of worms not just for display flying, but for any type of flying. As AvMed courses have long drilled into us, the human body is not designed for the things we do to it in the air. Displays are an extreme example, but even routine operations are full of potential for illusion, error and misjudgement. I had an instructor who reckoned that the successful pilot was someone who left the smallest proportion of their mental faculties on the runway.

If 'impairment' of the sort that leads to flying below minima and missing gate heights is considered grounds for acquittal from criminal charges, it rather undermines the idea that a pilot could be held to account for their actions. Some degree of 'impairment' can always be argued.

Besides, isn't being aware of the potential for impairment, and taking appropriate steps to mitigate, an essential part of piloting? Just the act of beginning that display was arguably reckless given the currency and experience issues.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 19:02
  #174 (permalink)  

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Running in below ‘aerobatic’ minima. It’s my understanding that this is legal, as the definition of an aerobatic manoeuvre is not reached until one is above the 500’. There are plenty of examples of that.

Those who ignore the possibility of TIA and condemn AH for recklessness and demanding his head on a plate are misguided.

Taking the example of TIA/stroke, thinking of three examples of pilots I have known personally, one died, one lost his medical and the other is a current airline captain.

BravoAlphaOne has it summed up correctly I believe.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 19:08
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks, all, it’s a new can of worms for defence of anything you might do in everyday life!




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Old 9th Mar 2019, 20:23
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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I think Bravo Alpha one pretty much nails it. I mentioned it to someone who had the same issue and it fits. Can we please put away the flaming torches and pitchforks?
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 20:45
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
This 'cognitive impairment' would appear to be a massive can of worms not just for display flying, but for any type of flying. .
That surely must be a major worry. 'Chesty Morgan' earlier on in this thread asked "How many of the thousands of pilots currently operating aeroplanes do you think have the potential to become cognitively impaired?". The answer would appear to be all of us/any of us, unpredictably, just as anyone may at any time suffer a stroke or other health impairment.
Bravo Alpha One highlighted another aspect of these same issues.
For those who would like to prevent, inhibit or reduce aviation these are yet more sticks they can use to beat us with. Depressing.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 20:49
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.flyingwithoutfear.com/16038/

Perhaps simply, he was charged with the wrong thing. He still killed and maimed all those innocent folks.

Class action offing?
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 21:07
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"Flying without fear".?

It is fear that keeps one alive. If you have no fear you won't last long, especially outside the rigid confines, of airline flying for e.g.

I have a fear of flying into the ground, when not intending to land. I have a fear of bad weather etc., etc.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 21:07
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brian W May View Post
https://www.flyingwithoutfear.com/16038/

Perhaps simply, he was charged with the wrong thing. He still killed and maimed all those innocent folks.

Class action offing?
Eric Brown merely pointed out the reality of what happened. He didn't say why. Most pilots understood what happened. It was blatantly obvious. It's no secret. The why is not explained. Alpha Bravo provided a possible explanation the Jury in their wisdom took that into account and made a decision
Perhaps you'd like to lynch the man. But luckily the English justice system doesn't allow for that.


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