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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

Old 1st Apr 2019, 08:42
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I'll take that as a "no, Fitts and Posner had nothing to do with aviation." If you want to see the research, I'll offer you a search term that you may pursue if you like.
NATOPS. That program was the result of some research that was mostly written in blood.
As to observations, I'll support Lomcevak's point. I'll also point out that it was institutional knowledge before I entered into flight training about four decades ago.
If you want to delve into Instructional systems Design, you will find various schools of thought on that constitutes "mastery" and I'll go no further as that takes us well off topic.
Awesome - thankyou sir! Exactly what I was after https://www.public.navy.mil/airfor/s...l%20NATOPS.pdf

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Old 1st Apr 2019, 09:33
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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FWIW I believe you may find that the originator of the concept of what is termed the Hierarchy of Competence was the celebrated psychologist Abraham Maslow. He identified four stages of Competence, Stage 1 Unconscious Competence, Stage 2 Conscious Incompetence, Stage 3 Conscious Competence, Stage 4 Unconscious Competence.

Maslow's work was then adapted by just about every training situation you can imagine from business through to medicine and beyond. So aviation must have picked it up somewhere along the way!

Last edited by DODGYOLDFART; 1st Apr 2019 at 09:44.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 09:48
  #363 (permalink)  
 
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I think Stage 1 is "Unconscious Incompetence,"
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 10:25
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Haraka View Post
I think Stage 1 is "Unconscious Incompetence,"
So it would seem ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

Last edited by MPN11; 1st Apr 2019 at 10:37. Reason: typo
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 10:52
  #365 (permalink)  
 
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This is a fascinating thread but I take issue with one comment:
Low speed light aircraft do not use a gate height during low level looping manoeuvres because it is not appropriate with the high pitch rate at the apex and the small radius. Therefore, rigid application of a gate height protocol will not be a familiar procedure for a display pilot whose experience is mainly light aircraft, however experienced he is.
. I taught aerobatics in light aircraft (such as Bulldog, Cap10, Stearman) for many years and introduced gates from almost the first trip, exits from cock-ups were taught fairly soon after. The teaching was reinforced by introducing gates that could not be achieved and therefore forcing an escape manoeuvre. AFAIK this is fairly standard and reinforced by the aerobatic syllabus.
As others have said, it is almost inconceivable that someone with AH's experience would not know how to escape from a whole range of errors.

HFD (not ex-mil)
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 10:58
  #366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK View Post
True, but to the best of my knowledge nothing else has ever been taught. The concept of a rigid gate height protocol for medium level aerobatics in training has never, as far as I am aware, been taught in the RAF. So saying, I am not advocating that this should be taught in flying training because altitude loss during pull through is a function of TAS and so will vary markedly with altitude.
That is my experience too and agree with your reasoning.


For interest, we do currently teach EFT trainee pilots to check for a minimum IAS once inverted before pitching through the vertical on a 1/2 Cuban 8 and if that minimum speed is exceeded, they should roll out of the manoeuvre and re-commence. We do not teach gate heights, though a nominal height requirement for looping manoeuvres should be known to prevent minimum height busts by pitching through too low.

I also displayed a Hunter T7 for about a year and we (the team pilots) deliberately chose not to attempt any looping manoeuvres due to our perception of the risk levels in a low level aerobatic display. Interestingly, as a current RAF pilot with 20+ years on FJ and now current QFI'ing, it took me less than 8 hours on the Hunter, an ac I had never flown before nor had I any experience of low level aerobatics, to get cleared down to 200ft for any manoeuvre (and also formation on any ac and any number of ac) at Public Events.

In hindsight, this seems inadequate, though at the time I felt I knew what I was doing and indeed performed safely throughout the season.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 12:16
  #367 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the correction Haraka. Either a touch of the Advanced Fuddyitus or perhaps my bl**dy spell checker again!
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 14:10
  #368 (permalink)  
 
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hugh flung_dung and Tay Cough,

Many thanks for your comments about gate heights in low speed aircraft. I have little experience in this end of the performance range but no-one else has ever said to me that they do use them and I certainly have asked many people. For the small amount of low level aerobatics that I have done in light aircraft, for straight loops I have always just used a minimum pull-up speed and pull-up height, and I certainly would never pull-up from flypast minima as I do in more powerful aircraft. However, for planned control inputs for spins etc I most certainly do use minimum heights. This is becoming serious thread drift but I am interested in your thoughts about the time for making a decision to fly an escape manoeuvre at the apex with respect to the high pitch rate, resulting low nose attitude when you start to roll and, in some aircraft, poor roll performance. Happy to go onto PMs if you wish.

Capt Scribble,

Re your comment
Iím sure we are all familiar with the recovery from an ĎUnusual Positioní, an expeditious recovery from somewhere you did not want to be, to a position of safety. Not only taught to all RAF pilots but examined in the annual IRT. Useful in all situations from disorientation to aerobatics.
In the context of the Shoreham accident manoeuvre, at 105 KIAS at the apex of a loop the standard UP recovery for the Hunter would have been to close the throttle, centralise the stick and rudder pedals, wait until the IAS reached 200 KIAS, roll wings level and recover back to level flight. This is certainly not an appropriate escape manoeuvre at the apex of a low level loop.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 15:09
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Originally Posted by Homelover View Post
Err, probably the crashing part?
This thread is about the trial. Nothing in the trial pointed to lack of time/experience in type. The jury concluded that the accident was caused by cognitive impairment, which is totally independent of time/experience in type.

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Old 1st Apr 2019, 15:43
  #370 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Evalu8ter View Post
KenV,
I would humbly suggest that a total of 43 hours on type in 4 years was the "part of the Shoreham tragedy (that) was caused by a lack of time/experience in type by the pilot?". Less than half what a pilot would get on a far more intensive 6-month OCU course, and a fraction of the legal mandated flying (let alone Display) currency for a military Fast Jet pilot. It opens up all sorts of question marks about cognitive failure,
May I politely point out that in this case the cognitive failure was judged not to be due to inexperience in type, but due to some kind physical impairment. The physical impairment was independent of time/experience in type. The incident pilot failed to recognize he was both low and slow when entering the maneuver and then exacerbated the problem by reducing power during the upward portion of the vertical maneuver. These cognitive failures were not due to lack of time/experience in type. Clinically, cognitive failures are due to the following factors: overload of short-term memory capacity, reduced attention and vigilance level, incidental learning, and divided attention. LINK Experience in type would not have changed any of these cognitive failure factors. Further, the jury clearly and unanimously decided that a physiological event triggered the cognitive failures in this incident. Again, no amount of experience in type would have altered that.

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Old 1st Apr 2019, 16:05
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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Juryís Findings

Hi Ken,

You post with authority.

Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at?

A genuine question as I canít find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasnít there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 16:12
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KenV View Post
The jury concluded that the accident was caused by cognitive impairment, which is totally independent of time/experience in type.
Further, the jury clearly and unanimously decided that a physiological event triggered the cognitive failures in this incident
KenV, I think that the your emphasis is not quite correct. I think that it would be more accurate to say that the jury decided that it was not beyond reasonable doubt that cognitive impairment could have occurred. The judge, in his direction to the jury, said that it was the prosecution's task to demonstrate that cognitive impairment did not occur which is not an easy task! Therefore, it is not as black and white as you have stated; it is the 'beyond reasonable doubt' requirement for this charge which has a great impact on the verdict.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 16:30
  #373 (permalink)  
 
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The CI issue was simple. There are no medical tests to prove whether it occurred or not. Therefore it might have. Hence a not guilty verdict because the prosecution couldn't prove it hadn't happened.

Whether you think thats a lot of holes in a lot of cheese lining up at a very inopportune time in tragic circumstances, as some may, well thats by the by.

It seems like based on the opinion of a lot of experienced aviators here that the lack of time in the jet was certainly an aggrivating factor.

Whether or not you consider its reckless and negligent to perform an aerobatic display in an aircraft without the requisite training and knowledge as to do if things go a bit t*ts up, is of course, a seperate matter, which maybe wasn't fully considered.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 17:29
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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The CI issue was simple. There are no medical tests to prove whether it occurred or not.
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? I assume it's not as simple as just saying "I don't remember"? Can a scan pick up damage in the relevant part of the brain?
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 18:21
  #375 (permalink)  
 
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KenV,
Couple of points if I may. In my experience, cognitive failure is likely exactly when overloaded and capacity sapped - we revert to the familiar (how many times have I used, for example, the wrong downwind checks....Bulldog in a Grob Tutor comes immediately to mind). AH was a low hour,low currency Hunter pilot with much more familiarity with the JP - I can see a distinct possibility he had a JP moment or something akin to it. As for CI being caused by a transient physiological issue, you are right that the court agreed - but only on the high bar of certainty necessary for a guilty verdict for the serious crime he was accused of. I would venture that a lower burden of proof at civil action level may well see a different outcome....
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 08:30
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia?
I've forgotten....
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 08:41
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Its not quite the same thing, but there is a Medical test for Dementia, the Doctor will ask a series of simple questions then while doing something like checking Blood Pressure will ask the questions again to see if the same answers are forthcoming.

FB
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 12:24
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wrathmonk View Post
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? I assume it's not as simple as just saying "I don't remember"? Can a scan pick up damage in the relevant part of the brain?
There is no definitive test. Occasionally, patients with retrograde amnesia ie before the precipitating event, are found to have hippocampal abnormalities. But thatís it. Additionally, if and when memory returns, the recollections are often jumbled or inaccurate, and hence are unreliable.

many patients who spend time in an intensive care unit have retrograde amnesia - presumably as a consequence of the precipitating event and the various sedative or analgesic drugs they receive.

Caramba

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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 12:56
  #379 (permalink)  

 
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orca, you ask:
Juryís Findings
......
Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at?

A genuine question as I canít find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasnít there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon.
I posted on 27 March
Bearing in mind that the jury (of eleven people) came to a unanimous verdict after about seven hours of consideration, it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecutionís ..... Incidentally, the reason for there being eleven jurors, rather than twelve, was that, on 29 January, one juror fell ill and was taken to hospital by ambulance. She was excused further jury service.
I suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts

airsound
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 20:21
  #380 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airsound
it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecutionís
I don't think you can even say that much, especially the word 'over'. The defence arguments need only be strong enough to introduce reasonable doubt, which could be achieved while still considering the prosecution's arguments to be stronger as a whole.
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