F-4s & Hawks in the Air Defence role
Phil R,
Where on earth would the Fulcrums have come from, Denmark? And with their range issues, where would they have been going, Norway?
There was no perceived manned air threat to the UK from about 1958 to 1979 ish, as the Soviet threat was IRBM/ICBM for which NO aircraft was a counter, then the Backfire/Fencer panic kicked in which led to an increase in UK AD assets, of which the 88 Hawk T1A's in a local point defence and MFF role were a small part. For most of the life of the Lighting it was a small UK force of 5 squadrons with an ID and shepherd away commitment.
Where on earth would the Fulcrums have come from, Denmark? And with their range issues, where would they have been going, Norway?
There was no perceived manned air threat to the UK from about 1958 to 1979 ish, as the Soviet threat was IRBM/ICBM for which NO aircraft was a counter, then the Backfire/Fencer panic kicked in which led to an increase in UK AD assets, of which the 88 Hawk T1A's in a local point defence and MFF role were a small part. For most of the life of the Lighting it was a small UK force of 5 squadrons with an ID and shepherd away commitment.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
There was no perceived manned air threat to the UK from about 1958 to 1979 ish, as the Soviet threat was IRBM/ICBM for which NO aircraft was a counter, then the Backfire/Fencer panic kicked in which led to an increase in UK AD assets, of which the 88 Hawk T1A's in a local point defence and MFF role were a small part. For most of the life of the Lighting it was a small UK force of 5 squadrons with an ID and shepherd away commitment.
Mine had 2 x F4 Sqns at Wattisham; 2 x F4 squadrons plus a double strength OCU at Coningsby; 2 x F6 Ltg squadrons plus the LTF at Binbrook plus 2 x F4 squadrons at Leuchars. All facing a threat of manned Bear B bombers carrying A-S2 Kangaroo nuclear ASM, plus Backfires and Blinders with a mixture of AS-4 Kitchen and AS-6 Kingfish nuclear ASM.
The first RAF F-4 AD squadron, 43Sqn, formed in 1969.
That, of course, was ignoring their SACLANT role to protect the fleet against the same plus Bear-D surveillance and Bear-F ASW assets. The scores of live QRA intercepts against such in my log books must be fake news.
Where on earth would the Fulcrums have come from, Denmark? And with their range issues, where would they have been going, Norway?
But in all seriousness, none of this puts the lie to what I originally proposed - that the RAF simply didn't have a useful fighter force for decades (and only does now depending how you feel about Typhoon.) The fact that this might have been done quite deliberately on the assumption that it probably wouldn't be needed isn't entirely comforting.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ORAC, I would disagree slightly. I thought the Bear may well have been targeted on the USA. You also missed out the Badger/AS6 whose mission was assumed to be your bunkers and radar heads.
I think the Fencer threat might have been exaggerated and at best limited to East Anglia.
I think the Fencer threat might have been exaggerated and at best limited to East Anglia.
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I used to like seeing the little Hawks arrive at Leuchars for Taceval, it evoked something of the BofB
Easy for me to think from my nice warm PBF of course!
Easy for me to think from my nice warm PBF of course!
typerated - The comparison between the GAF Alpha Jet and the Hawk T1/1A could not be more stark. The basic Alpha out-performs the basic Hawk in all regards, even if you knock the toblerones off the T1 wing. Add stores to either and performance dip for the T1 is far greater than the equivalent Alpha.
The GAF Alphas were built as light attack aircraft from the outset and improved in service. Multiple hardpoints, external fuel, full spec wing, HUD, INS, stores management system, ECM, ESM, integral chaff/flare dispensers, proper gun, uprated engines et al. The only thing that was very late to the GAF Alpha was AIM-9 capability, which was introduced towards the end of their operational life. They are very different to the advanced training Alphas built for the French. If the GAF had had their way they would have selected different engines entirely for the Alpha Jet.
The Hawk family did include single-seat light attack variants but they were a ground-up redesign and far removed from the humble T1.
The GAF Alphas were built as light attack aircraft from the outset and improved in service. Multiple hardpoints, external fuel, full spec wing, HUD, INS, stores management system, ECM, ESM, integral chaff/flare dispensers, proper gun, uprated engines et al. The only thing that was very late to the GAF Alpha was AIM-9 capability, which was introduced towards the end of their operational life. They are very different to the advanced training Alphas built for the French. If the GAF had had their way they would have selected different engines entirely for the Alpha Jet.
The Hawk family did include single-seat light attack variants but they were a ground-up redesign and far removed from the humble T1.
I remember the Germans often coming across on Priory/ Elder Forrest/ Joust with large formations of Alphas 16 or so!
From that I pictured Hawks doing something similar in Germany.
Tornados or similar taking out a bridge and then a large formation of Hawks with SNEBs trying their luck with the resulting traffic jam.
Certainly never got my head round what use Hawks would be for UKAD
Last edited by typerated; 10th Mar 2019 at 07:33.
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BEagle
BEagle you are wrong. MFF was a good idea, poorly introduced by HQ11GP.
2ATAF developed MFF in the late 70s to operated with F4s and F104s and later F16s. The F4Fs at Wittmund also tried it with the RNAF 104s. It was a very successful way to get the less able fighters into a merge. The change in benefits was obvious with the change from 104 to F16. The Wildenrath/Beauvechain Wings were very adept at MMF.
Even had early F15s from Soesterberg flying on our wing in 81/82 because their radar was so poor low level overland (great for intercepting speeding cars!)
In the UK MFF with the Hunter was just viable. Unfortunately , the Hawk with an Aim9 was a sled and was a pain to fly with. As a F4/F3 crew we had to take too long worrying where the Hawks had got to.
You are correct, but MFF was a rubbish idea....
With those cumbersome AIM-9 pylons, the Hawks were just too slow.
With those cumbersome AIM-9 pylons, the Hawks were just too slow.
2ATAF developed MFF in the late 70s to operated with F4s and F104s and later F16s. The F4Fs at Wittmund also tried it with the RNAF 104s. It was a very successful way to get the less able fighters into a merge. The change in benefits was obvious with the change from 104 to F16. The Wildenrath/Beauvechain Wings were very adept at MMF.
Even had early F15s from Soesterberg flying on our wing in 81/82 because their radar was so poor low level overland (great for intercepting speeding cars!)
In the UK MFF with the Hunter was just viable. Unfortunately , the Hawk with an Aim9 was a sled and was a pain to fly with. As a F4/F3 crew we had to take too long worrying where the Hawks had got to.
if your memory is of a German Alpha then yes, the rear STENCEL seat was optional role equipment and could be fitted when needed, along with a bunch of connector blanks for the rear bulkhead. In single-seat / operational fit the rear cockpit area was filled with the ECM pack.
if your memory is of a German Alpha then yes, the rear STENCEL seat was optional role equipment and could be fitted when needed, along with a bunch of connector blanks for the rear bulkhead. In single-seat / operational fit the rear cockpit area was filled with the ECM pack.
ORAC,
You describe the AD set up of 1979, which is why I chose that date. It may be out a few years either way but it iS true for the majority of the period post 1957 until the increase from 5 Lightning squadrons was proposed. The 1969 reformation of 43 Sqn was the first stage of that process.
Oh, and you slightly exaggerate. It was ONE F4 sqn at Coningsby, No. 29.
You describe the AD set up of 1979, which is why I chose that date. It may be out a few years either way but it iS true for the majority of the period post 1957 until the increase from 5 Lightning squadrons was proposed. The 1969 reformation of 43 Sqn was the first stage of that process.
Oh, and you slightly exaggerate. It was ONE F4 sqn at Coningsby, No. 29.
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I was at Coningsby when this subject resulted in the Award of the Wilkinson Sward of Peace to some one or other - Instructor on 228 OCU maybe ??.
As an LAC Linie at the time, told, along with a load of other Linies to get my Best Blue on and report to the Station Briefing Room.
MRAF Sir Micheal Beetham was there too - I thought he looked a bit bored with it all.
As an LAC Linie at the time, told, along with a load of other Linies to get my Best Blue on and report to the Station Briefing Room.
MRAF Sir Micheal Beetham was there too - I thought he looked a bit bored with it all.
My first recollection of the subject, was spotting the proposal as an alternative assumption......About the same time as disbanding the Reds as a cost saving measure first surfaced.
Connected? I couldn't possibly comment.
Connected? I couldn't possibly comment.
I was at Coningsby when this subject resulted in the Award of the Wilkinson Sward of Peace to some one or other - Instructor on 228 OCU maybe ??.
As an LAC Linie at the time, told, along with a load of other Linies to get my Best Blue on and report to the Station Briefing Room.
MRAF Sir Micheal Beetham was there too - I thought he looked a bit bored with it all.
As an LAC Linie at the time, told, along with a load of other Linies to get my Best Blue on and report to the Station Briefing Room.
MRAF Sir Micheal Beetham was there too - I thought he looked a bit bored with it all.
The Hawk involvement: the Next Great Idea by some neddy at 11 Gp.
About ten years before an IWI course had proposed AiM-9s for the Lightning. Rejected as the aircraft would be out of service within 5 years.