VeRR- have you experience of it?
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The pay simply does not compare against similar civilian roles, especially bearing in mind equivalent responsibility. But keep smoking that crack pipe and telling yourself “it isn’t so!”
Personal experience, gross pay up 20k just by leaving and moving to a similar role. That’s entry level pay.
- Imagine an RAF fleet that from a Manning* perspective, is completely and utterly broken.
- Imagine a fleet that through a combination of poor management, poor support and poor planning over a 10 year period, has reached the point where the 'rot' has well and truly taken hold.
- Imagine a fleet where peacetime duties result in a routine 60hr working week, often surging to beyond 80hrs per week.
- Imagine a fleet where the 1st tourist JPs (many of whom have spent over 8 years stagnating in a failed training system), are already plotting their escape plan, and no longer chat about QFI/QWI options at the end of their 1st tour; rather, discuss the merits of budget vs established airline.
- Imagine a fleet that continues to routinely haemorrhage the 'experienced' aircrew who no longer feel able to put up with the unjust day-to-day working demands.
- Imagine a fleet that has reduced beyond critical mass; that can no longer train sufficient people to make up for the exodus, having prioritised the training of foreign aircrew ahead of their own.
- Imagine a fleet that has no end in sight to the 'pain', where the only certainty being that things will get a lot worse, before they get any better.
- Imagine a fleet where the hierarchy seem focussed on hiding reality, prioritising their own career ambitions over what should otherwise be considered rather simple manning and welfare decisions.
If these hypothetical circumstances were ever to exist, I'm sure there might be a very good case to bring back 'heaps of Reservists', especially if they were highly capable aviators, with 1000's of hrs on type, having previously held extensive supervisory and instructional qualifications.
But I'm afraid that if you're expecting these aircrew to work in a high risk, demanding environment for a post tax monetary reward equating to approx £100 per day ( £9 per hour), then it is you who has been smoking the 'Devil's Lettuce'.
The MOD has at it's disposal, a tool to plug systemic Manning shortfalls across a wide variety of ground and airborne disciplines; it's called the 'financial lever'. Until the MOD is able to pay a 'fair day's wage, for a fair day's work' , then they will continue to suffer significant manpower shortfalls.
As a far wiser poster mentioned above, it all comes down to a very simple concept. 'No Bucks, no Buck Rogers'.
* NB - Official Manning position - 'it's all fine, there's nothing to see here, move along'.
* PS - I'm sure the comments above might be apt for a number of different current aircraft types.
Personal experience, gross pay up 20k just by leaving and moving to a similar role. That’s entry level pay.
Typhoondriver
The Armageddon that you describe is hardly going to be sorted by a handful of part-time Reserves, that get paid 2-3 times the daily rate that their Regular counterparts get, with no deployments (unless they want to) and are taking what precious little flying there is to stay competent/recent/current, is it? What you describe can only really be squared away through a number of things:
1. Prioritise the OpCon for output.
2. Get more people through MFTS.
3. Reduce the workload so that the ‘quality of life’ improves.
4. Make other ‘quality of life’ improvements (there are lots for - accommodation, promotion opportunity, trusting people (rather than constant audit), bring back admin support on Sqns, guarantees of geographic stability, etc...etc...).
Or we can take your solution - pay everyone more. But then all you end up with is rich pilots, still wire-locked in the p!ssed off position, because you haven’t fixed the problems that are p!ssing them off!!! If we introduce £500/day VERR pilots then watch how really p!ssed the remaining Regulars get. Also, as Typhoon and F35 have a new complexity that we have never seen before, watch how many fail to stay on top of their game (recent Typhoon PTVRs haven’t been very successful, have they?).
You don’t need to pay Buck Rogers very much at all if you let him fly and give him a decent quality of life...
The Armageddon that you describe is hardly going to be sorted by a handful of part-time Reserves, that get paid 2-3 times the daily rate that their Regular counterparts get, with no deployments (unless they want to) and are taking what precious little flying there is to stay competent/recent/current, is it? What you describe can only really be squared away through a number of things:
1. Prioritise the OpCon for output.
2. Get more people through MFTS.
3. Reduce the workload so that the ‘quality of life’ improves.
4. Make other ‘quality of life’ improvements (there are lots for - accommodation, promotion opportunity, trusting people (rather than constant audit), bring back admin support on Sqns, guarantees of geographic stability, etc...etc...).
Or we can take your solution - pay everyone more. But then all you end up with is rich pilots, still wire-locked in the p!ssed off position, because you haven’t fixed the problems that are p!ssing them off!!! If we introduce £500/day VERR pilots then watch how really p!ssed the remaining Regulars get. Also, as Typhoon and F35 have a new complexity that we have never seen before, watch how many fail to stay on top of their game (recent Typhoon PTVRs haven’t been very successful, have they?).
You don’t need to pay Buck Rogers very much at all if you let him fly and give him a decent quality of life...
LJ,
It would work for me-and stop me leaving. Simple business economics that works across the rest of the world. Why is the RAF different?? Otherwise the RAF would have to pay millions to train an unknown quantity to be simply LCR.
As for lots of flying and decent quality of life...
go on then. Whats in the pipeline?
Typhoon driver- well said.
pay everyone more. But then all you end up with is rich pilots,
As for lots of flying and decent quality of life...
go on then. Whats in the pipeline?
Typhoon driver- well said.
Thread Starter
LJ, with respect, the pay is particularly poor if you want high quality individuals with experience to come back in to the Service under a reservist scheme. Whilst I agree, circa £500 per day is not feasible, the pay per day for reservists (dependant upon which reservist scheme you come back in on) when compared to similar jobs in the civilian profession, such as a pilot, is poor.
To re-iterate: I had many contacts over the years to entice a ‘rejoin’ but at no stage did the offer seem attractive as it was either rejoin FTRS or FT at a lower pay band than when you left AND repay your pension lump sum ..... Errrr no!
The forces deny themselves significant and very experienced (outside experience ; therein also lies a cultural challenge ) people because there is no path back into service life that is not regressive. Why would I want to rejoin at same rank (BUT lower pay band) when I have a decade of development outside the military ? This is why I embarked on a conversation when it was presented as a highly flexible ‘we will consider anything ‘ role for which there was a pressing requirement. It was not a flying role though my FJ flying experience would have been helpful.
I provided the daily rate here, and to the desks, for comparison of what someone like myself would expect here in the civilian world as a means to judge the rate on offer and to illustrate why someone like me (mid-career and very capable) could simply not put it into the ‘pot’ of options.
Anything that we take on has an opportunity cost; for clarity I was not expecting £500 a day ( please remember this is NOT the 7 day a week daily rate that FT service pers are used to) but would have considered £250-300. On offer was £150 a day for 3 days a week. Folks; let’s be quite clear - this is peanuts for a challenging role of importance.
The wider issue is that there is no path for someone who left say, as and SO2/ SO1 to rejoin as a 1 star or above. Other nations’ forces do.
Easy Street
Hmmm, if you truly believe that then I suspect that we are doomed. People don’t join up to fly sims and it won’t matter what you pay - they will join up, fly a couple of tours and leave. We have a hard enough job dragging people to staff for 2-3 years, but if they hardly ever fly (apart from sims) then the excitement factor will quickly go.
Hmmm, if you truly believe that then I suspect that we are doomed. People don’t join up to fly sims and it won’t matter what you pay - they will join up, fly a couple of tours and leave. We have a hard enough job dragging people to staff for 2-3 years, but if they hardly ever fly (apart from sims) then the excitement factor will quickly go.
)I’m totally on board with your points rehearsed elsewhere about the whole ‘package’, pension, healthcare and all; the trouble is that the benefits have been shunted too far into the future to retain those younger than (say) 35 who need money NOW to pay mortgages, raise children and compensate for the limitations Service life places on spouses’/partners’ careers. A great pension is all very well but it doesn’t pay the bills!
(Spousal employment is IMHO a much bigger issue than many appreciate: the whole tax system is structured to strongly favour two moderate earners over one big/one small, as seen in many aircrew families. Pretty much the most tax-efficient thing our family could do is for me to take all my valuable flying experience into a reserve role and keep my pay ticking over while the Mrs gets back on the career ladder and starts using her tax allowances.)
Easystreet- very balanced post IMHO
VinRouge
I need to buy you a new Abacus! Here are the 10 years of pay awards:
2009: 2.8%
2010: 2%
2011: 0% due to austerity
2012: 0% due to austerity
2013: 1% and 0.5% X-Factor
2014: 1%
2015: 1%
2016: 1%
2017: 1% - however a new RRP(F) pay spine that pays up to £5k/pa more and a new £70k Retention Payment at OCU+7
2018: 2.9%
2019: 2.9%
Then on top of these is annual level progression and also for some transfer to PAS for more progression.
Yes, there are some years where the rise doesn’t match inflation, but for many they will have progressed. I would hardly call those percentages ‘10 years, no pay rise’ too
sorry, 10 years, no pay rise. The pay was just about adequate before this.
2009: 2.8%
2010: 2%
2011: 0% due to austerity
2012: 0% due to austerity
2013: 1% and 0.5% X-Factor
2014: 1%
2015: 1%
2016: 1%
2017: 1% - however a new RRP(F) pay spine that pays up to £5k/pa more and a new £70k Retention Payment at OCU+7
2018: 2.9%
2019: 2.9%
Then on top of these is annual level progression and also for some transfer to PAS for more progression.
Yes, there are some years where the rise doesn’t match inflation, but for many they will have progressed. I would hardly call those percentages ‘10 years, no pay rise’ too
LJ,
It would work for me-and stop me leaving. Simple business economics that works across the rest of the world. Why is the RAF different?? Otherwise the RAF would have to pay millions to train an unknown quantity to be simply LCR.
As for lots of flying and decent quality of life...
go on then. Whats in the pipeline?
Typhoon driver- well said.
It would work for me-and stop me leaving. Simple business economics that works across the rest of the world. Why is the RAF different?? Otherwise the RAF would have to pay millions to train an unknown quantity to be simply LCR.
As for lots of flying and decent quality of life...
go on then. Whats in the pipeline?
Typhoon driver- well said.
I honestly think it’s a simple fix when recruiting is so simple:
1. Have a trg system that can deliver against the predicted historical outflow (we don’t have that).
2. Have a great ‘quality of life’ (successive ‘lean events’ and so-called ‘business efficiencies’ have stopped that).
3. Pay a fair wage (we just about have that - it could be better, maybe 10-15% outside of where it should be).
4. Have a system that will provide for you for a late 2nd career or in full retirement (we have that).
5. Have a good resettlement provision (we have that).
Military HR is pretty simple - Recruit, Retain, Resettle - and the ‘Retain’ isn’t all about money to the individual. As easystreet states, there is also spousal employment to consider too, so keeping people geographically stable is important - keep the other half and kids happy, and you will be winning half the fight. But if everything is bad, as Typhoondriver is saying, then paying people more isn’t the answer - p!ssed off people with more money are still p!ssed.
The wider issue is that there is no path for someone who left say, as and SO2/ SO1 to rejoin as a 1 star or above.
LJ,
I agree with you. Except that your point 3 needs a little bit of work. Point 2 could do with a bit of beefing up to so as to keep CinC home guard on side.
I agree with you. Except that your point 3 needs a little bit of work. Point 2 could do with a bit of beefing up to so as to keep CinC home guard on side.
Yes, point 2 and male/female other halves in the past 20 years has been neglected too long. The days of ‘coffee morning and flower arranging wifey’ are long gone. Keep the home team happy, keep the Aircrew happy (by genuinely valuing them, allowing them to fly and have some fun) and paying a reasonable (ish) wage makes for a happy workforce. If you get that lot ‘out of trim’ without that ‘ball in the middle’ then things quickly depart...money or no money.
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Pay rise(s) vs cost of living 2010-2018
Level 35 PAS in 2010 = £77,625. (https://assets.publishing.service.go...28601/7799.pdf)
Level 35 PAS in 2018 = £83,582 (https://assets.publishing.service.go...Accessible.pdf)
Simple maths (which I always struggle with) makes that a 10.8% increase over 8 years (rounded up)
According to the Bank of England, the £100 spending power in 2010 would require £125 in 2018. (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/mone...ion-calculator)
My simple maths makes that a 25% increase in cost of living over the same period that a top rate PAS chap made an 11% wage increase.
Granted, there aren't many people who have been on level 35 for the past 9 years, but all those who have aspired to get to the top level are chasing a reduced value goal. To my mind that does mean that as a cadre we are all being paid less vs the cost of living than was the case in 2010 and It does sound a bit like we haven't actually had a pay rise to me.
A 25% increased level 35 PAS over the 2010 figures would be £97,031 and change.
Edited to add: My typing is too slow and LJ's 10-15% figure backs up my point (albeit it's the 15% end of the spectrum rather than the 10%)
I get it - there has been austerity, there's no money, we still have a pension, there's job security and free gym membership. But please let's not deceive ourselves that, as a cadre, our disposable income or buying power is actually going up.
Level 35 PAS in 2018 = £83,582 (https://assets.publishing.service.go...Accessible.pdf)
Simple maths (which I always struggle with) makes that a 10.8% increase over 8 years (rounded up)
According to the Bank of England, the £100 spending power in 2010 would require £125 in 2018. (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/mone...ion-calculator)
My simple maths makes that a 25% increase in cost of living over the same period that a top rate PAS chap made an 11% wage increase.
Granted, there aren't many people who have been on level 35 for the past 9 years, but all those who have aspired to get to the top level are chasing a reduced value goal. To my mind that does mean that as a cadre we are all being paid less vs the cost of living than was the case in 2010 and It does sound a bit like we haven't actually had a pay rise to me.
A 25% increased level 35 PAS over the 2010 figures would be £97,031 and change.
Edited to add: My typing is too slow and LJ's 10-15% figure backs up my point (albeit it's the 15% end of the spectrum rather than the 10%)
I get it - there has been austerity, there's no money, we still have a pension, there's job security and free gym membership. But please let's not deceive ourselves that, as a cadre, our disposable income or buying power is actually going up.
Lima Juliet
Much of what you have said, I am in total agreement with. However, your rigid support of the 'money makes no difference' ideology is reminiscent of the institutionalised myopia only normally seen in individuals that have either sat on the Manning Desk, or drunk the Shrivenham tonic.
We're agreed that the solutions you have described at points 1-4 would make a near instantaneous improvement to the current sorry state of affairs. Why then, has nothing been done to resolve these issues? They've been previously highlighted and well known for close to 10 years. Why are things getting worse? How long would points 1-4 take to implement?
$$$$$$ - When I'm talking about monetary incentives, I'm not suggesting an enormous pay increase for the regulars. We all knew what we signed up for, how much we would be paid, and how long we would have to serve.
I'm talking about a targeted monetary incentive aimed at high calibre individuals who have already made the decision to leave the Service 'come what may'. MOD has the ability, through the lever of money, to persuade certain individuals to continue engagement with the Service in order to retain much needed 'on-type experience and knowledge'. They don't have to retain all of their previous high-end qualifications and currencies; even leading a simple REDAIR sortie, would create some much needed slack in the system, allowing others to take their Annual Leave for example. And if we can create some extra slack in the system, that in turn might stop things getting worse, which in turn might allow some breathing space, which might give you the 10 years you'll need for points 1 - 4. When the systemic issues have finally been resolved, you can turn the money taps off.
Bottom line:- Extra cash is the 'Quick Clot' required to stop the bleed whilst the SO's triage the patient and implement a long term treatment plan.
The alternative being that the many experienced pilots currently leaving will be lost to the Service forever. And our loss, will be Jet2/BA/TUI/BAE/Middle East's gain.
Much of what you have said, I am in total agreement with. However, your rigid support of the 'money makes no difference' ideology is reminiscent of the institutionalised myopia only normally seen in individuals that have either sat on the Manning Desk, or drunk the Shrivenham tonic.
We're agreed that the solutions you have described at points 1-4 would make a near instantaneous improvement to the current sorry state of affairs. Why then, has nothing been done to resolve these issues? They've been previously highlighted and well known for close to 10 years. Why are things getting worse? How long would points 1-4 take to implement?
$$$$$$ - When I'm talking about monetary incentives, I'm not suggesting an enormous pay increase for the regulars. We all knew what we signed up for, how much we would be paid, and how long we would have to serve.
I'm talking about a targeted monetary incentive aimed at high calibre individuals who have already made the decision to leave the Service 'come what may'. MOD has the ability, through the lever of money, to persuade certain individuals to continue engagement with the Service in order to retain much needed 'on-type experience and knowledge'. They don't have to retain all of their previous high-end qualifications and currencies; even leading a simple REDAIR sortie, would create some much needed slack in the system, allowing others to take their Annual Leave for example. And if we can create some extra slack in the system, that in turn might stop things getting worse, which in turn might allow some breathing space, which might give you the 10 years you'll need for points 1 - 4. When the systemic issues have finally been resolved, you can turn the money taps off.
Bottom line:- Extra cash is the 'Quick Clot' required to stop the bleed whilst the SO's triage the patient and implement a long term treatment plan.
The alternative being that the many experienced pilots currently leaving will be lost to the Service forever. And our loss, will be Jet2/BA/TUI/BAE/Middle East's gain.
Typhoondriver
Yes, that’s a fair set of points too. I’ve never been in Manning (or Career Management as it’s now called) or had my brain removed at Swindon Military Polytechnic. My thoughts come from my experience as an Aircrew mate of 30+ plus years vintage, having seen a lot of change and a lot of things come around 2-3 times.
SwitchMonkey makes a good point too, Level 35 is adrift and should be closer to £95k rather than the current £85k - this 10-15% ‘in effect’ pay drop (since 2003 actually - when PAS first came in) has slowly chipped away at the deal. However, there are parts of the Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr cadre currently in their 30s that have fared better with the new RRP(F) and the £70k lump sum than their counterparts from 10-20 years ago. It’s not just the last 10 years, the slow drip-drip cut in the offer has been ongoing for the 30-odd that I’ve been in. Also, the shortages on the FL and the issues in the Fg Trg Systems have been the same too during that time. So what makes things different now, to the past 30 years? I believe it’s because we need to GROW for the first time in my 30-odd years - that’s the real difference. We had always just managed the decline in numbers, but with Typhoon sqns 7 & 8, the expansion for Protector, the new Poseidons and a new Wedgetail inbound then that is why we are now starting to squeal - it’s because we have ignored the Personnel and Trg DLODs since we decided to grow from SDSR15 that we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. Add to that the slow drip-drip ‘death by a thousand cuts’ and you find yourself at the centre of a perfect storm.
There is a PAS and RRP(F) review due for AFPRB reports in 2021 and 2022 (1-2 years away) that might provide a mechanism to fix that. Prior to that, trying to fix the non-remunerative things might assist the ‘quality of life’ issues. But here is the real question - would everyone sooner have £5k-£10k in their pocket before tax, or have a bunch of worker assistance on the Sqns and in work to help with the trivia? It would be interesting to survey for such an answer as I’m sure it would produce a split answer. Here is an article on the USAF problem and as you can see it’s not really about salaries and more about what Gen Goldfien calls the “Value Proposition” - fly more, less trivia (by getting help), allowing innovation and ensuring families are happy: https://www.usnews.com/news/national...pilot-shortage and here https://www.airforcetimes.com/opinio...sses-the-mark/
The RAF or even the UK Mil’s aviation arms are not the only ones suffering - even the mighty US war machine is having “aviator troubles”. The USAF have piled money at the problem and that hasn’t really worked. It’s not just a money problem - it’s a complex self-generated issue with lots of individuals that all have their eye on something different. I suspect it was ever thus? Just like something else going on at the moment in politics, trying to unpick 40+ years of a system is going to take a while. But on that subject, if I were a young person again, I don’t believe I would rush outside to the airline industry right now - it’s not the stable place it once was and from what I hear the crews are being worked harder and harder for less perks, as the market becomes more and more competitive.
Yes, that’s a fair set of points too. I’ve never been in Manning (or Career Management as it’s now called) or had my brain removed at Swindon Military Polytechnic. My thoughts come from my experience as an Aircrew mate of 30+ plus years vintage, having seen a lot of change and a lot of things come around 2-3 times.
SwitchMonkey makes a good point too, Level 35 is adrift and should be closer to £95k rather than the current £85k - this 10-15% ‘in effect’ pay drop (since 2003 actually - when PAS first came in) has slowly chipped away at the deal. However, there are parts of the Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr cadre currently in their 30s that have fared better with the new RRP(F) and the £70k lump sum than their counterparts from 10-20 years ago. It’s not just the last 10 years, the slow drip-drip cut in the offer has been ongoing for the 30-odd that I’ve been in. Also, the shortages on the FL and the issues in the Fg Trg Systems have been the same too during that time. So what makes things different now, to the past 30 years? I believe it’s because we need to GROW for the first time in my 30-odd years - that’s the real difference. We had always just managed the decline in numbers, but with Typhoon sqns 7 & 8, the expansion for Protector, the new Poseidons and a new Wedgetail inbound then that is why we are now starting to squeal - it’s because we have ignored the Personnel and Trg DLODs since we decided to grow from SDSR15 that we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. Add to that the slow drip-drip ‘death by a thousand cuts’ and you find yourself at the centre of a perfect storm.
There is a PAS and RRP(F) review due for AFPRB reports in 2021 and 2022 (1-2 years away) that might provide a mechanism to fix that. Prior to that, trying to fix the non-remunerative things might assist the ‘quality of life’ issues. But here is the real question - would everyone sooner have £5k-£10k in their pocket before tax, or have a bunch of worker assistance on the Sqns and in work to help with the trivia? It would be interesting to survey for such an answer as I’m sure it would produce a split answer. Here is an article on the USAF problem and as you can see it’s not really about salaries and more about what Gen Goldfien calls the “Value Proposition” - fly more, less trivia (by getting help), allowing innovation and ensuring families are happy: https://www.usnews.com/news/national...pilot-shortage and here https://www.airforcetimes.com/opinio...sses-the-mark/
The Rand study identifies money as the root of the retention problem, and as such, recommends solutions based on material benefits to the pilot community. Offering more material benefits is an attractive proposal because it is simple and quantifiable. But ultimately it is not a real solution. This materialistic approach is not working now, and there is no reason to believe it will provide a fix in the future.
The long-term solution is to reform the structural problems plaguing the system. As the Mitchell Institute has reported, most former pilots “were critical of efforts made by their chain of command to reduce or postpone service demands that were affecting family and marriage stability, ability to remain collocated with working spouses, and other factors more prescient than in past generations of Air Force pilots.”
The long-term solution is to reform the structural problems plaguing the system. As the Mitchell Institute has reported, most former pilots “were critical of efforts made by their chain of command to reduce or postpone service demands that were affecting family and marriage stability, ability to remain collocated with working spouses, and other factors more prescient than in past generations of Air Force pilots.”
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 20th Oct 2019 at 22:44.
